[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

This has nothing to do with offering less standard hardware on the car, but more to do with including all the bells and whistles. My 1SS had the upgraded audio and the manual transmission. That was the end of the options. It still had the standard SS transmission, still had the standard Brembos, still had the standard LS3.... it just didn't have all the tech crap, the RS package, etc etc...

The problem with the new Camaro is that they are including all of that...and frankly, some people just don't want it. They just want a V8, some cloth seats, and a basic transmission.

Has zero to do with tires or anything of the like...in fact, I'd be shocked if they changed anything on the wheels at all, aside from maybe offering a cheaper wheel style.

You're dead wrong here. The 2 biggest items that affect price (outside of the engine and transmission) are wheels and tires. GM is going to downsize both of those and offer an all season on their base...you can book it. And you don't just change the wheel and tire dynamics without touching the suspension as well. The spring rates and shocks will be changed to better suite the larger sidewall tires and in the end....all of this will affect performance. If GM does it right, they can offer a lower priced V8 entry camaro than the mustang.

You don't get to pick and choose here....the Mustang GT is the base model V8. The Camaro SS is the base model V8. There is no disputing these facts. Just because your car choice was given a knife and came to a gun fight doesn't change that fact.

The 1LE is an upgrade "package" to the base SS, regardless of whether you have a 1SS or a 2SS. The PP1 and PP2 are both upgrade packages to the base GT. They would still be applicable to the 1LE in comparison as they do not add power, they only add suspension components and better handling equipment/aero.

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

The GT 350/R would be a natural competitor to the Z/28, if it were in production. The Z/28 has always been the type of car that the GT 350 is....but unfortunately GM doesn't have a competitor in that class.... so it's either the 1LE or the ZL1 you get to face....

Either way, it's not a fair comparison for the Mustang...because it's not going to win it...

In the Fbody days, the Z28 aligned with the base GT and the SS was the up-level, so no...the Z28 has not always been the type of car as the GT350. This is something some of you fail to realize, these model lineups change from year to year. Before the PP2 existed, the only match-up we had was between the PP1 and 1LE. In all reality, the PP1 matched up better (option and price-wise) with the SS, but because chevy doesn't really have a lower optioned all season alternative, it's really all we had.

And again, it's this very reason GM is going to make a competitor to the base GT. They see the sales their losing out on and they want a piece of the pie. The also need to continue to expand their market to keep sales up. This is the entire reason special models come along a few years after int-ital release. Tooling costs are largely paid for and selling cars is job number 1.

Originally Posted by oldman

PLEASE, a performance pack that still can't be raced?? Too funny. This is just as bad as a Shelby with tech pack that can't be raced. Why can't Mustang fans understand this? This is like the battered spouse syndrome.

SEEK HELP

You'll notice Ford no longer calls these "track packs". Why is that do you think?

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I don't know how people can look at an object and assign it a "gender" in the first place. It's odd. However in my experience 99% of the women I date don't care so much about my car. Neither the Mustangs or the Camaros or Vette or whatever else I have.

Agreed

Originally Posted by Chadicus

As far as PP1 vs 1LE vs PP2. Previous to 18 I would say the PP was the equivalent to the 1LE. It got smoked.

You see, this is where we differ. The PP1 and 1LE were absolutely not equivalents. For the MY15 and MY16 GTs, 30% of buyers chose the performance pack. They didn't chose them for their track prowess, they chose them for the bigger brakes and unique wheels and tires.

You are absolutely correct in that the 1LE smoked the performance pack, as it should have.

We compare them because they were the only options available. Ford engineered a street oriented $2500 (bargain) option that "could" be occasionally taken to the track and GM engineered an ($6000) track terror that was equally livable on the street.

Anyone truly looking for a track car would choose the 1LE, no questions asked. The two cars really weren't competition nor were they designed to be.

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Seriously just out of curiosity since we are all talking about these cars and packages. I know you are not looking for a all out track car, as you said you would have bought a 1LE.

Are you eyeing the PP2, just waiting to see how it is first? I thought an '18 would be in my garage by now too, but went a somewhat unexpected route since the MT-82 was not replaced with a Tremec.

Just curious what you're looking for in your next Pony Car purchase. Lot's of options for whatever checks people's boxes these days from roomy Dodge's, Sporty AF Camaros, and quite a few new package/upgrades to the '18 GT to try out too. I'm no fan of car manufacturer's.....QUITE the opposite actually. I love cars, hate the BS involved though.

Honestly, my MY16 will likely be my last pony car purchase. My next purchase will likely be something much...much older. I see these cars getting away from their roots in the near future...enough so that I fear the V8's may not make it another 15 years.

And for the record, I have had not one single issue with my MT-82.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I will agree. But I still think that just because the PP1 has proven to be inferior does not mean it isn't the competitor. The PP2 is more capable and can put up more of a fight. But that still doesn't mean it is the actual natural competitor.

You keep on saying this but offer no real answer. If the PP1 continues to be the only real competitor for the 1LE, then what does that make the PP2? And why is the PP2 now optioned very, very similarly to the 1LE with (in all likelihood) similar performance yet not considered a competitor?