Hellcat vs ZL1
 

I'm currently in a rush, but I just wanted to update the forum with a personal observation. I just raced a hellcat charger today, the race was so close that he followed me into another city. I believe he had underestimated the ZL1's potential lol. We evenly had won a few pulls over each other but it was cool, although the Hellcat is fast, I just feel as though the ZL1 can last longer for some reason. It won't be hard for our vehicles to catch up and win the race.

I let my son drive my zl1 friday night and he beat a hellcat. We ran a 11.15 hellcat ran a 11.19. We were on stock tires and the cat had drag radials. No doubt the zl1 is faster than alot of people expected. Oh and we ran 127 and the cat went 126. Air was 1400ft.

Depends on a lot of things, but tires and driver are the two biggest.
The Zl1 is more athletic, the Hellcat is more of a heavyweight boxer.
We live in great times to be car guys!

I own a Hellcat Charger. Before I say anything else, let me point out that I'm planning on adding a ZL1 after the holiday season.

As a sports car: The ZL1 STOMPS the Hellcat because it has NEARLY the same power, but has world class handling. On a road course, the Hellcat in dead meat. End of story.

As a muscle car on the track: The Hellcat, setup correctly, is quicker. High 10's are common with just drag radials. I don't see ANY ZL1's doing that at all. People who own both already stated that the big Cat is a quicker car.

As a road car: Hellcat (especially the Charger) is a REAL 4-5 seat family machine with a huge trunk. There is no comparison at all for comfort and utility. Hellcat for the easy win.

General driving: It's going to be a drivers race. On the open road the Hellcat has LONG legs. All the way to over 200 MPH. Sheesh. But better stock rubber and a more planted chassis makes the ZL1 feel a lot more stable to me. It's not too hard to get to 60 MPH in under 4 seconds in the ZL1. But with the 275's you'll struggle to do that with a Hellcat and need great technique. Some folks have managed 3.4 second (car and driver) and I've seen 3.2 a few times.

Bottom line: Only a fool won't own BOTH of these fantastic cars! ;-)


R

Jst wait,

As this will be my first Gen Camaro I have decided to make it a Project Race Car staying withing the factory specs(similar to NHRA Stock class but without ANY internal mods)

I have Two Objectives that I WILL achieve with my 1LE;

1) Break the 200mph barrier(Done) and;
2) Improve existing sec 1/4 mile times 1-2 full secs on DOT tires.

Limitations; Stock Factory ZL1 1LE using the existing factory Engine/Drivetrain WIHOUT ANY INTERNAL MODS.

I won't go into details (as is good racercar builder always keeps his Trump card for last)

I plan to post my results in about 12 months.

Bonus; If everything goes well, a trip to Bonneville might be in the future, (late 2019-2020).

That should be fun. But we're talking stock unmolested cars here. There are stripped Hellcats running low 10's out there, but that aint stock!


R.

That is one of the best statements I've ever read.:thanks: here is a guy who really appreciate two cars. There is no rivalry between those two. Both of them are damn good and powerful cars. I would buy both of them if I could.

Got em both. They are both amazing.

Is there any good reason why Dodge decided to only put 275s on the rears of the Hellcat? Did they think that was "good" or did they just expect everyone to toss them for DRs?

The Dodge is a 20+ year old chassis they bought from Mercedes. Cost to much to reengineer it and have it work properly.

One thing is for certain is the hellcat will never be a ''car's length'' ahead of the ZL1. Even if it pulls ahead of it (except on the track) it will only be a few inches ahead like the hood will line up with the location of the Hellcats' gas tank. The ZL1 catches up pretty quick too, not sure why it just does.

I really don't know but I do know they originally wanted to put 245's on the Hellcat, but that was just way too :bonk:

I think A10 to A8 it will always be close enough that either car can claim a victory. But M6 HC (obviously not the Charger since it comes with A8 only) to A10 ZL1 might be a clear ZL1 win. And A8 HC to M6 ZL1 should be a HC victory. Once you start getting into the higher speeds is when I think the ZL1 will pull away as it has a higher top speed, less weight, and is lower to the ground. That is with all else remaining stock. The HC makes more power but at a certain speed that extra weight will start to wear it down. I think some of the HC owners do underestimate the ZL1 for some reason. But it is clear that both cars are formidable. Once there are more ZL1s out there we'll see more good runs with these two heavy weights.

Regardless of the chassis or how old it is, it does exactly what Dodge designed it to do and then some. Plus that design is why they're able to keep the cost low. Maybe our Camaros wouldn't be soo expensive if they weren't getting refreshed every 4 years and then 2 getting a completely new design 2 years after that.

True dat!

However, the benefits of a redesign every 3-4 years are substantial. I have read some HC owners post HC times at the 'ring of 7:51 and 8:00: yet there are no such official times. I did watch a video of the HC at the 'ring, and it is downright scary. The HC should be in a drifting completion...not at the 'ring.

The other benefit the HC has is that it is more spacious. And it has more interior creature comforts than the Z. However, the braking is inadequate. The ride comfort level is second or third class...so it is not a good touring car. It is not a track car. I loved the look of the car...until I saw the Z: I truly like the look of the 5th gen Z better than the HC. So it beats most everything as a drag car, but nothing else.

I like the HC, but not being a touring car sealed the deal for me. I took my 83 year old mother and 80 year old aunt out for a spin the other day. I asked them if the had insurance and a recent cardiogram. I was privately hoping they were wearing depends.:bellyroll:

They both commented on how nice quality the ride was. Isn't that sweet?

About the comfort, I think the HC is more comfortable as long as you're on a smooth road. It is very cushy. But once you hit bumps and potholes it hits like BANG even in touring mode. The ZL1 takes bumps and potholes much easier. Plus on some parts of the road where there are dips or those little sharp upgrades the HC will bump and you'll kinda flop around in the seat. One such road had my butt actually lift out of the seat. I took that same road in the ZL1 many times and it stuck to the road much easier and held me in the chair. But again, when the road is straight the HC is a pleasure to drive. I don't think the brakes on the HC can stop it as well as the ZL1 brakes stop the ZL1. But it does an adequate job for a vehicle of it's size. I would like to see how much different the Charger HC is compared to the Challenger HC.

I'm no engineer or physics major or anything, but I don't think it works like that. Once the weight gets moving, then the car with more power, better aero and less drag should start to pull ahead. I think they're pretty damn close, close enough to be called a drivers race when comparing the A10 to A8 or M6 to M6, but at higher speeds, I think the Hellcat should slowly start to pull ahead. Nothing dramatic, but slightly.

What's the top speed on the ZL1? I thought it was 199 or something like that. The Challenger HC top speed is also 199 mph. The Charger Hellcat, despite weighing more, has a top speed of 204 due to better aero.

I cannot see a HC having better aero at all (maybe less downforce)...it's the ponies that take it there.

Agreed. I'm still waiting to have a meeting with one... that and a 13-14 Gt500

Unless I see something different...

Hellcat Charger is a 204 MPH car that has made passes at 207 MPH as well. Officially they say 204. The 1/4 mile is a regular story at 10.85 with drag radials, but that will NEVER happen on a normal road.

I've driven the ZL1 twice now. And I've tested it directly against my Hellcat. From 70 MPH I will pull on the ZL1 in every instance. I had a second go at it last week with a A10 ZL1 and it was exactly the same.

But again, these cars are really NOT comparable. The Hellcat is a truly practical car. People can fit in the back and the Charger version is a totally usable family car with a HUGE trunk. A ZL1 is a 2+2 Corvette and no one fits in the back happily, including my son who's just 5'3 at the moment.

If you want a practical car that can also be a awesome fun car, the Hellcat is a great way to go. If you want a focused sports car that still has a minimum of utility, get the ZL1. I don't see why folks compare these cars when only a madman would cross shop them. They have totally different design goals.


R.

From my bench reasoning...

A Hellcat can walk a half car away on a stage 3 aero Z06 on the highway (seen it 10 times in a night). Stage 3 Z06s have a ton of drag north of 130, where the Hellcat is just getting moving. A stage 3 Z06 will put a car or more on a 6th ZL1. So with that in mind, On a 60+ to top speed highway roll, I see a 2 car win for a Hellcat by 180. Less as you go down.

100% correct.

And those 275 tires also let the Hellcat get beyond 200 MPH. Less drag/friction.

But with less downforce, the Hellcat is a scarier ride. Yes, it pulls maniacally well beyond 150 MPH, but that lack of downforce is more than a tad scary. I know this 1st hand.

A ZL1 will test your skills. A Hellcat will test your balls. Both tests are a LOT of fun!



R.

I would love to come across either of these two in either trans configuration in either of my cars...and habe the driver actually have balls to go at it. I would love to see where I stand. From videos I have seen both cars look about dead even but that depends on driver ability. One thung I do notice is that the ZL1 seems more planted at higher speeds which is why I think it'll do a higher top speed. It just takes a lot to unplant the ZL1. Between the two I prefer the ZL1 for high speed runs but that's just me.

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In this older episode ot Motor Trend's Ignition they claim that the Hellcat was incredibly stable at high speed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BZOcxQQC2M

?

The HC Charger has better aero than the HC Challenger. Certainly not better aero vs the 6th gen ZL1 though. But - it does have a the ponies to compensate so it comes down to a driver's race.

I don't get this statement. The ZL1 is less expensive than a Hellcat. I thought they were priced right at introduction, but with the big 2016 price increase I actually think the Cats are overpriced for what they are. I traded my 2016 Hellcat Challenger for my ZL1, by the way. It is indeed an awesome car, that did exactly what Dodge said it would, but I feel no regrets since trading.

There's really no more room inboard to add more meat if you look under the car. That's why they had to go with fender flares on the widebody. I know people add wider wheels and tires and drag radials on stock wheels, but they stick out.

Nor I. The HC's prices have increased, not the Zl1's (or barely). My '13 sold for 63k, and many buyers are getting their new Z's in the mid 60's. The redesign allows for better trans (A10), skidpad, times, interior creature comforts, more safety features, etc. That's not a bad thing.

There may be a rare few that paid msrp on their '17 Z, but I think most received some form of discount(s).

A guy I know just took his bone stock 2017 Hellcat with only 200 miles on it and on a stingy mustang dyno, put down 648 RWHP. It's an auto, so add 20% for drivetrain loss and you're at 777 crank HP. This is far from the first time this has happened. At my local shops, Hellcats will dyno at 630-680 RWHP consistently and hero pulls as high as 695 RWHP and 700 RWHP.

In contrast to this, ZL1s have been dynoing at 550-570 RWHP bone stock consistently, and if you add 15% for manuals or 20% for autos for either of those numbers, you get right around 650-660 HP.

So really if you think about it, the average bone stock Hellcat, lays down numbers that are 100-150 RWHP more than a ZL1 or Z06. Remember earlier I talked about a Hellcat putting a fender on a Stage 3 aero Z06...I've seen a stock A8 NO aero Z06 put 2 cars on a Hellcat as well. From a dig, the Hellcat will get murdered by a A8 Z06 as well. Z06s have put down as low as 10.4s on STOCK RUBBER and 10.8s all day bone stock, mid tens with poor drivers/bad air on a drag radial, no issue. I know a guy that owns both a Z06 and a Hellcat, from a dig, no question the Z06 will beat a Hellcat. But from a highway roll, his Hellcat will put a fender on his Z07 M7 (Stage 3 aero) vs Auto Hellcat Charger. If his was an A8, it'd probably stave off the Hellcat period. If it was an auto + stage 1 or 2 aero car, it would badly beat a Hellcat.

Charger Hellcats weigh 4,575 pounds. Coupe, Auto ZL1s weigh 3920 pounds or thereabouts. If we say that the average Hellcat makes 750 HP stock, which is probably on the low side, they're more like 770 HP IMO. And the average ZL1 makes 650 HP, then:

Charger Hellcats have 1 HP for every 6.10 pounds. With a .35 drag coefficient for Chargers and .39 for Challengers.

ZL1s have 1 HP for every 6.03 pounds. With a drag coefficient of .30 for Coupes.

Theoretically, the cars should be very close, however the HP advantage becomes a huge advantage once you're up over 100. Moving it off the line though? I don't see the average Hellcat owner beating a ZL1 off the light, ever.

Besides all that, the ZL1 looks way better, handles way better (As good as most supercars), is built on a brand new chassis and not a chassis originally designed for a grocery getter. Hellcats are also more expensive and entirely too popular. The new wide body cats look a bit better however I can't shake the feeling that it's STILL the same BLASTED car with some bushwhacker flares and the ability to put a wider tire that would also fit a non-wide body cat but stick out a little bit.

For some reason all HC discussions are invariably directed at times from a dig or a roll...and hp...and nothing else.

They are never directed at track or touring discussions. I have read no less then 10 times the HC does what is was expressly intended to do (go fast in a straight line). As if the Z does not do its (triple threat) job at the strip, track or while touring. Huh.

True, sometimes races happen sporadically in the wild, so we take the opportunity to race just to give one another an idea of each vehicles' potential. Also, you make a good point about real world tracking/touring sessions. Personally, I would like to race a HC in an actual tracking environment to get an even better idea of how well our cars operate.

At RA over the weekend (I live 30 minutes away) 6 of 7 of the first finishers were Camaros. No Mustangs, No HC's, one Toyota. Yeah, Baby.

While I may agree, the reason why you see so many discussions about the one aspect of the Hellcat, is because that's all it is good at. But it's the good one thing to be good at IMO. Because real world racing, let's face it, it'll be on a high way at 3 honks. I'd be willing to bet only 10% or less ZL1 owners will actually track there cars, and only another small percentage of them will actually set times worth comparing (Most will just get out to have fun, but want to drive their car home at the end of the day so they just have fun and not really race, which is understandable naturally). Straight line speed is the most accessible thing to the average driver and even to the above average driver. Nurburgring talk and track times and want to make a big deal out of the triple threat capability are mostly just that...talk. Few will actually use it. But what can basically any ZL1/Hellcat owner actually do? Put their right foot down on the highway.

We're discussing the one aspect we can compare the ZL1 and Hellcat to. Nobody said the ZL1 doesn't do it well. Nobody. And nobody would. We're discussing the minute details between the two on the highway, in which case, the Hellcat is likely marginally faster.

Let's play it your way though, after this lets only talk about lap times and tracking/touring with the ZL1 and the Hellcat. Lets see how much there is to discuss.

I'd say the number will actually be much less than the 10% you listed more like 2-3%. Go back through the pages in this forum and while folks are interested in the track result printed reviews there is virtually no mention of actual track use. In comparison look at the number of posts in regards to street/strip performance.

^^^THIS^^^

And, there's nothing wrong with that. We all buy a car for whatever our purpose is but the truth of the matter is that nearly 95% of us who buy these track focused (or at least, 'track capable') cars never take them to the track, much less use them to the 10/10ths of performance they are capable of.

It's all good.

What if the HC never broke a 12 second 1/4 in testing, would that influence your decision to buy? Same with the ring. Do you look up the specs and performance of a smartphone or computer before you buy?

We're not saying that lap times/1/4 mile times don't matter. Because they do. But we already know most of the HC's and ZL1's capabilities on a track (Very bad, and very good respectively). My point was just to say, it's OK to talk about high way usage without somebody budding in to "Not forget about the ZL1's track performance".

I didn't write or infer that. The op wrote it was "a race." Not an 1/8th mile, nor a 1/4 mile.

Well...that's just rude.

It's not just the Z's track performance, but drivability whilst touring that the HC lacks. Obviously, these things need not be regurgitated in every thread about the HC. I guess, for those of us that do not read every thread, and read what is written at face value, perhaps you, 2Much, could "budd in" and post that, henceforth, we will only discuss straight line top speed performance, notwithstanding the op's intent of the thread. ;)

You'd destroy a HC in a actual track environment. IIRC, the V6-1LE was faster in the 2016 lighting laps. An amusing quote about the HC before it was dismissed...

Quote:

The Hellcat is the Hulk in Gucci pumps. That said, it’s fun. You run over everything in your way: curbs, trees, flag stations, anything that threatens to make it turn any more than it really has to. And yet the main challenge in the Charger (see what we did there?) is to keep it pointed straight, because it pretty much wants to go all 4.1 miles sideways, backward, or just spinning like a Chinese pinwheel firecracker. http://www.caranddriver.com/features...p-2016-feature

Whether you use the full potential of your ZL1 or not, it is a complete performance car (triple threat) for less money. If going with the HC for its attributes, I'd chose the Charger for the added convenience of four doors. :)