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-   -   Well, the LT5 is now confirmed a thing.... (https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=513300)

Deakins 11-13-2017 08:21 PM

Well, the LT5 is now confirmed a thing....
 
Got an email from GM last night about the new ZR1 Corvette and it's new 755 hp LT5 engine...maybe there's hope for a Z/28 someday....

Eric SS 11-13-2017 08:45 PM

My personal opinion is that if they make a Z/28, I hope it has a high reving N/A engine in it, not the LT5. Hell, throw a slightly reworked LS7 in it and give it the ZL1LE wheels, aero, and a little diet. (It’ll never happen but I would be ok with that.)

Bhobbs 11-13-2017 08:50 PM

Al O already said the Z/28 is an n/a car. If, and that is a massive if, there will ever be another Z/28, it won't have the LT5.

Deakins 11-13-2017 09:07 PM

Well then sadly I don't think this fabled Z/28 is ever going to happen. GM will never get a NA engine past current and beyond emissions standards that makes enough steam to not be considered "slow" compared to the current crop of forced induction power plants. Sorry, NA is great...but forced induction is the road ahead. If NA truly is the only way forward for the Z/28, I think it died in 2015.

Mr. Wyndham 11-13-2017 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bhobbs (Post 9974756)
Al O already said the Z/28 is an n/a car. If, and that is a massive if, there will ever be another Z/28, it won't have the LT5.

:word:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakins (Post 9974783)
Well then sadly I don't think this fabled Z/28 is ever going to happen. GM will never get a NA engine past current and beyond emissions standards that makes enough steam to not be considered "slow" compared to the current crop of forced induction power plants. Sorry, NA is great...but forced induction is the road ahead. If NA truly is the only way forward for the Z/28, I think it died in 2015.

Or...DOHC, high-revving.

The emissions question really is a matter of startup emissions. And the big-displacement engines can't hack it on cold startup.

Smaller displacement engines can....but you lose the power figure...so, the solution there is individual cam-phasing, and higher revs to make up the gap in power...but you're going to end up with a lower-torque engine, like the Voodoo V8 in the GT350, or any number of European engines.

2SSRS@Gen5diy 11-13-2017 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham (Post 9974853)
:word:



Or...DOHC, high-revving.

The emissions question really is a matter of startup emissions. And the big-displacement engines can't hack it on cold startup.

Smaller displacement engines can....but you lose the power figure...so, the solution there is individual cam-phasing, and higher revs to make up the gap in power...but you're going to end up with a lower-torque engine, like the Voodoo V8 in the GT350, or any number of European engines.

+1, think 4 valve DOHC 8500 RPM redline and 850HP we have the best of times for gear heads, from now till 2022 there are some good motors coming out.

Z/28 will fallow the last gen, with more power and a new DCT TRANS, power will come from a N.A. motor.

detltu 11-14-2017 08:31 AM

I still think the Z28 name is too important to just leave on the sidelines. Perhaps we get a preview of the NA motor from the C8 Corvette. I still think we see something when the car is refreshed. They have boxed themselves into a pretty good corner though. The SS 1LE is pretty close to what you might expect a Z28 to be. The ZL1 1LE is so extreme that it sets a high bar if the Z/28 has to out perform it. I don't believe it will get the LT5 though. I doubt the ZL1 gets the LT5 either. I think that one is Corvette only.

MrChrisLS3 11-14-2017 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bhobbs (Post 9974756)
Al O already said the Z/28 is an n/a car. If, and that is a massive if, there will ever be another Z/28, it won't have the LT5.

He did say that, and it's out there for everyone to see. However, he was talking about a non existent car. So, really, anything still goes, and let's face it, if we want a Z/28 to have serious power, in today's environment, it's going to have to be force fed. It's really the only way to get the high numbers you want and low numbers you're required to have at the same time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by detltu (Post 9975137)
I still think the Z28 name is too important to just leave on the sidelines. Perhaps we get a preview of the NA motor from the C8 Corvette. I still think we see something when the car is refreshed. They have boxed themselves into a pretty good corner though. The SS 1LE is pretty close to what you might expect a Z28 to be. The ZL1 1LE is so extreme that it sets a high bar if the Z/28 has to out perform it. I don't believe it will get the LT5 though. I doubt the ZL1 gets the LT5 either. I think that one is Corvette only.

I agree that the last gen Z/28 boxed them in somewhat. I see where they now have two possible options for the Z/28.

First is putting the LT5 in the ZL1 1LE chassis. Doing this and maybe adding a couple of other goodies like standard CC brakes and such, would make it the top dog in the line up.

The second option is to put the LT1 in the ZL1 1LE chassis. Having the DSSV, the A10 available, and the body panels, would be enough to distinguish from the SS 1LE. This would also keep Big Al from being a liar and the Z/28 remain N/A.

Interesting note about the LT5 is that it has combines direct injection with port injection. In this case, for the purpose of adding the fuel needed to run 13lb boost to keep the engine fed, but it will also help keep valve coking in check. Also have not read anything yet that the LT5 has AFM.

shaffe 11-14-2017 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by detltu (Post 9975137)
I still think the Z28 name is too important to just leave on the sidelines. Perhaps we get a preview of the NA motor from the C8 Corvette. I still think we see something when the car is refreshed. They have boxed themselves into a pretty good corner though. The SS 1LE is pretty close to what you might expect a Z28 to be. The ZL1 1LE is so extreme that it sets a high bar if the Z/28 has to out perform it. I don't believe it will get the LT5 though. I doubt the ZL1 gets the LT5 either. I think that one is Corvette only.

The Z/28 does not have to outperform the ZL1 1LE, that was a pedestal that the 5th gen car created. The 5th gen car, put this thought in people heads that a Z/28 has to be the end all when it comes to Camaro performance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrChrisLS3 (Post 9975309)


The second option is to put the LT1 in the ZL1 1LE chassis. Having the DSSV, the A10 available, and the body panels, would be enough to distinguish from the SS 1LE.

Hot LT-1 in a ZL1 1LE Chassis would tick all the boxes for what many would consider a proper Z/28. It would be a serious track package, it would be the fastest N/A powered camaro, and it would be one hell of a package. Price wise would probably slot in between SS 1LE and ZL1

Mr. Wyndham 11-14-2017 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaffe (Post 9975314)
The Z/28 does not have to outperform the ZL1 1LE, that was a pedestal that the 5th gen car created. The 5th gen car, put this thought in people heads that a Z/28 has to be the end all when it comes to Camaro performance.



Hot LT-1 in a ZL1 1LE Chassis would tick all the boxes for what many would consider a proper Z/28. It would be a serious track package, it would be the fastest N/A powered camaro, and it would be one hell of a package. Price wise would probably slot in between SS 1LE and ZL1

I would be very interested to see someone put a ZL1 front end, wheels/tires, 6-pot brake upgrade, DSSV suspension, and aero on a 1SS.

shaffe 11-14-2017 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham (Post 9975318)
I would be very interested to see someone put a ZL1 front end, wheels/tires, 6-pot brake upgrade, DSSV suspension, and aero on a 1SS.

Personally I think that would be the perfect 6th Gen Z/28. Look how good the SS 1LE is, pretty much the 5th gen Z's equal in some aspects. Add that stuff to a SS 1LE and I think you would have one hell of a track pack

Mr. Wyndham 11-14-2017 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaffe (Post 9975323)
Personally I think that would be the perfect 6th Gen Z/28. Look how good the SS 1LE is, pretty much the 5th gen Z's equal in some aspects. Add that stuff to a SS 1LE and I think you would have one hell of a track pack

Yes...the LT4 is a joy, though. Spins so quickly and freely...torque everywhere.

One of the common observations of the Z/28 was how it feels like it runs out of steam at the high end. Essentially the suspension and brakes outperform the engine. I would think the hypothetical thing we're discussing would suffer from the same sort of characteristic...

Nick S 11-14-2017 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham (Post 9975318)
I would be very interested to see someone put a ZL1 front end, wheels/tires, 6-pot brake upgrade, DSSV suspension, and aero on a 1SS.

This may be closer to a reality than you think.

After the SEMA show I had read that the Chevrolet Performance team is looking into possibly making a conversion kit to put the ZL1 1LE front end (bumper, fenders, hood) onto SS Camaro's. The DSSV suspension is already announced that it will be coming and as far as brakes go if I were to upgrade brakes on a 6th gen 1LE I'd just skip the OEM stuff and go right to Essex/AP Racing. It will save weight over OEM stuff and outperform it.

Eric SS 11-14-2017 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick S (Post 9975542)
This may be closer to a reality than you think.

After the SEMA show I had read that the Chevrolet Performance team is looking into possibly making a conversion kit to put the ZL1 1LE front end (bumper, fenders, hood) onto SS Camaro's. The DSSV suspension is already announced that it will be coming and as far as brakes go if I were to upgrade brakes on a 6th gen 1LE I'd just skip the OEM stuff and go right to Essex/AP Racing. It will save weight over OEM stuff and outperform it.

I don't even need the whole front end. I just wish someone would make wider front fender that look like the ZL1 but mate up to the SS hood and bumpers. But the front end would be pretty cool.

detltu 11-14-2017 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaffe (Post 9975314)
The Z/28 does not have to outperform the ZL1 1LE, that was a pedestal that the 5th gen car created. The 5th gen car, put this thought in people heads that a Z/28 has to be the end all when it comes to Camaro performance.



Hot LT-1 in a ZL1 1LE Chassis would tick all the boxes for what many would consider a proper Z/28. It would be a serious track package, it would be the fastest N/A powered camaro, and it would be one hell of a package. Price wise would probably slot in between SS 1LE and ZL1

I agree. I think they would find ways to distinguish it from the Zl11lE.

I will also say this. I think we are more likely to get a LT5 Z28 than we are to get no Z28 at all. N/A ZL11LE would be pretty cool though. I still think it would need a power bump over the LT1 though.

Bhobbs 11-14-2017 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by detltu (Post 9975554)
I agree. I think they would find ways to distinguish it from the Zl11lE.

I will also say this. I think we are more likely to get a LT5 Z28 than we are to get no Z28 at all. N/A ZL11LE would be pretty cool though. I still think it would need a power bump over the LT1 though.

The LT5 won’t end up in a Camaro. No Camaro has ever gotten the best engine GM produces.

LateBrakeU2 11-14-2017 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bhobbs (Post 9975575)
The LT5 won’t end up in a Camaro. No Camaro has ever gotten the best engine GM produces.

1969 Camaro with RPO ZL1

Bhobbs 11-14-2017 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LateBrakeU2 (Post 9975666)
1969 Camaro with RPO ZL1

That was a COPO, not a regular production car.

shaffe 11-14-2017 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LateBrakeU2 (Post 9975666)
1969 Camaro with RPO ZL1

That was also back in the day when if you knew the right people you could get anything, my old man ordered a 69 W-30 in a color that wasn't even offered on the 442 in 1969.

WhyUMad1LE 11-14-2017 05:21 PM

LT5 is heavier though. What I would really like is an N/A engine with the the SS 1LE styling+chassis and ZL1 interior.

Say based on the LT1 but with more top end or shorter gearing, and lighter engine internals like the LT4 has. That would probably be the "new" LS7, or at least the uplevel N/A engine.

WhyUMad1LE 11-14-2017 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bhobbs (Post 9975575)
The LT5 won’t end up in a Camaro. No Camaro has ever gotten the best engine GM produces.

ZR1 is a MY19. You must have forgotten about the 2017-2018 ZL1.

Bhobbs 11-14-2017 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhyUMad1LE (Post 9975946)
ZR1 is a MY19. You must have forgotten about the 2017-2018 ZL1.

Do you think they just decided to do the LT5? The ZR1 prototypes have been running around for over a year and a half. I guarantee the engines were being built and tested before that.

LateBrakeU2 11-14-2017 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bhobbs (Post 9975676)
That was a COPO, not a regular production car.

Yes it was a COPO(central office production order) but you could order the Camaro with the ZL1 as an RPO(Regular production order) You could also get a COPO camaro with RPO L72(iron block 427) most came out of Fred Gibb's or Don Yenko's Dealer networks.

hotlap 11-15-2017 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bhobbs (Post 9976213)
Do you think they just decided to do the LT5? The ZR1 prototypes have been running around for over a year and a half. I guarantee the engines were being built and tested before that.

It was only two years ago you were convinced that all the LTx development was consolidated into the LT1 and LT4 with fewer models as the result. Chevy performance has changed its stance toward Camaro and has dominated the segment in this generation. With nothing Camaro related known now for 20/21, it's reasonable to expect another halo Camaro will appear.

btw. I too am not a fan of the 1.7L SC on the LT4. Big mistake that Camaro had to adopt but overall Camaro wins from GM's larger performance envelope.

Mrfixxit7 11-15-2017 06:35 AM

Does the ZL1 1LE have wider fenders than a SS if so how much wider are they? Sorry for the newbie question

dpevans 11-15-2017 07:17 AM

Al said several years ago the Z28 will be built with a normal aspirated engine. He stated you will never see forced induction in the Z28 so the new LT5 will not be in the Z28. The history of the Z28 has always been to compete in Trans Am racing. Most people don't know if you order the SS it's RPO was Z27. What I found amusing GM put the Z24 sticker on the Cavalier, RPO code for Z24 is the SS427.

Mr. Wyndham 11-15-2017 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrfixxit7 (Post 9976534)
Does the ZL1 1LE have wider fenders than a SS if so how much wider are they? Sorry for the newbie question

A little off topic, :laugh:, but yes - just the same as the standard ZL1...a little under an inch per side.

Bhobbs 11-15-2017 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotlap (Post 9976528)
It was only two years ago you were convinced that all the LTx development was consolidated into the LT1 and LT4 with fewer models as the result. Chevy performance has changed its stance toward Camaro and has dominated the segment in this generation. With nothing Camaro related known now for 20/21, it's reasonable to expect another halo Camaro will appear.

btw. I too am not a fan of the 1.7L SC on the LT4. Big mistake that Camaro had to adopt but overall Camaro wins from GM's larger performance envelope.

I was convinced because I never thought having two similar performance Corvettes made sense.

The ZR1 is what the Z06 should have been. The Z06 we have new is too compromised.

I may have been wrong about them going beyond the LT1 and LT4 but I still don’t seem them suddenly releasing a bunch of new engines.

Mr. Wyndham 11-15-2017 10:53 AM

I read an article about the ZR1 in Car and Driver, and a lot of Tadge quotes seem to indicate that one of the biggest enablers of this car was ignoring EU pedestrian standards, and choosing not to sell the car there.

Mister Will 11-15-2017 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaffe (Post 9975314)
The Z/28 does not have to outperform the ZL1 1LE, that was a pedestal that the 5th gen car created. The 5th gen car, put this thought in people heads that a Z/28 has to be the end all when it comes to Camaro performance.



Hot LT-1 in a ZL1 1LE Chassis would tick all the boxes for what many would consider a proper Z/28. It would be a serious track package, it would be the fastest N/A powered camaro, and it would be one hell of a package. Price wise would probably slot in between SS 1LE and ZL1

I understand what you are saying. The Z28 when it first came out was not the most powerful car in the Camaro line up. But once the Camaro stopped getting big blocks, around the mid 70s, the Z28 has always been the top of the line (and most powerful) Camaro. So I can understand why people expect the a Z28 to be the most powerful and best performing Camaro in the line up.

shaffe 11-15-2017 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Will (Post 9977000)
I understand what you are saying. The Z28 when it first came out was not the most powerful car in the Camaro line up. But once the Camaro stopped getting big blocks, around the mid 70s, the Z28 has always been the top of the line (and most powerful) Camaro. So I can understand why people expect the a Z28 to be the most powerful and best performing Camaro in the line up.

Until the SS came back in 01/02 LOL but what you are referencing is because the Z/28 simply became the V-8 model.

lt4camaro 11-15-2017 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bhobbs (Post 9975575)
The LT5 won’t end up in a Camaro. No Camaro has ever gotten the best engine GM produces.

LT4 in the ZL1, LT4 in the 97 SS SLP Camaro.

RLHMARINES 11-15-2017 08:19 PM

My belief is that a ZL1 will have the LT5 engine upgrade during this generation and the Z/28 will also be produced before the next gen arrives but it will not have a power adder. We will see an entirely new power plant come our way in 2019 for the final 2 year send off of the 6th gen Camaro.

doc7000 11-16-2017 05:16 AM

At this point it is going to come down to what the Camaro needs to compete in the market place, honestly though it isn't just about horsepower ratings anymore.

Quinten_33 11-16-2017 09:20 AM

I think the Z/28 should use a lower displacement, moderate rpm V8. 323CI truck engine with 6700rpm redline? Strip an SS 1LE and give it something similar to Corvette competition seats, make the PDR standard and back seats, electronics, and A/C optional. Standard DSSV with 285/315 Supercar 3R tires, optional carbon ceramics, and a bit more downforce. It would also need a flowtie, A black bow tie, black taillights and brake light, and 323 badges on the sides. 3500lbs with 450hp and a 6-Speed. It wouldn’t be the fastest in a straight line nor around a track, but Chevy could easily sell that for $55,000 and make money. That 5.3 liter would pull all day long and the suspension and tires would make it the most agile Camaro to date, and I bet you it would be the most fun Camaro to toss around a track. That’s what the Z/28 should be: a fun, inexpensive, reliable, yet high performing track car. It would also fill in the $50,000-$60,000 range for the Camaro lineup and make Ford wish their GT350, boss, Mach 1, or whatever else they have was that good.

doc7000 11-16-2017 01:19 PM

If the Camaro gets its own engine or works it out where they will share an engine with the ATS V replacement (I can see that happening) then they should aim to set a new high water mark for production OHV engines. Go for at least 7,500rpms (maybe higher), they can use a 5.3L V-8 but honestly I like the idea of a 4 inch bore and 3 inch stroke 5.0L V-8. With the bore of the 6.2L engine they can put some heads on it the approaches 400CFM of flow on the intake side of things. Look at the Coyote engine, even ported heads are pushing around 340CFM of flow while stock is pushing 298CFM of flow (I believe first gen heads). Stock LS3 heads will flow 314CFM and would fit on said 5.0L engine meaning you have a 5.0 2 valve head with more flow then Fords 4 valve 5.0L head. I have seen on the net ported LS3 heads and after market casting pushing close to 400CFM. Put that on a 5.0L LT motor combined with some rpm and you would make huge power.

hotlap 11-16-2017 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham (Post 9976849)
I read an article about the ZR1 in Car and Driver, and a lot of Tadge quotes seem to indicate that one of the biggest enablers of this car was ignoring EU pedestrian standards, and choosing not to sell the car there.

America first! :lol:

Quinten_33 11-16-2017 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doc7000 (Post 9978261)
If the Camaro gets its own engine or works it out where they will share an engine with the ATS V replacement (I can see that happening) then they should aim to set a new high water mark for production OHV engines. Go for at least 7,500rpms (maybe higher), they can use a 5.3L V-8 but honestly I like the idea of a 4 inch bore and 3 inch stroke 5.0L V-8. With the bore of the 6.2L engine they can put some heads on it the approaches 400CFM of flow on the intake side of things. Look at the Coyote engine, even ported heads are pushing around 340CFM of flow while stock is pushing 298CFM of flow (I believe first gen heads). Stock LS3 heads will flow 314CFM and would fit on said 5.0L engine meaning you have a 5.0 2 valve head with more flow then Fords 4 valve 5.0L head. I have seen on the net ported LS3 heads and after market casting pushing close to 400CFM. Put that on a 5.0L LT motor combined with some rpm and you would make huge power.

That’s crazy to think that LS heads are that much better than DOHC coyote heads... A 7,500rpm OHV 5.0 sounds like something that’ll make the annual “10 best engines” list. The only issues I see are EPA ratings and profitability. An engine like that has to use a lot of fuel. I know people can their LT4s and run E85 and their mpg drops to singe digits but Chevy won’t produce a car with worse gas mileage than the last Z/28. How expensive would that engine be? I know LS3s are cheap but it’s $2,500 bucks more for an LT1. A 7,500 rpm engine with LT tech would be at least as much as an LT4, right? Maybe that price isn’t too bad, but it doesn’t make much sense when you can get an LT4 instead. The Z/28 can’t just happen because the lineup needs a Z/28, It has to make sense. It has to be fast enough to justify its price and cheap enough to justify its speed, yet it still has to be special. That 5.0 would be special, I’m just not convinced it would be a justifiable choice over the LT4.

I still want to see a low rpm, low displacement small block Camaro. Maybe that could work as a less expensive SS engine(Think R/T vs SRT 392). 375hp 390lb-ft or torque, six speed manual. If they drop a few standard features like they said they would, a $33,000 V8 Camaro would be possible with that engine. That’s old school fun, and I think it would work. Either way, we’ll have to wait ‘till summer to see if they’re testing a new Z/28. Until then, there’s no point to all of this talk anyways.

Supercup 11-16-2017 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinten_33 (Post 9978834)

I still want to see a low rpm, low displacement small block Camaro. Maybe that could work as a less expensive SS engine(Think R/T vs SRT 392). 375hp 390lb-ft or torque, six speed manual. If they drop a few standard features like they said they would, a $33,000 V8 Camaro would be possible with that engine. That’s old school fun, and I think it would work..

That might be a good slot in the current gen 6 line up - but that will not be a Z/28 - it needs to slot in between SS 1LE and ZL1 1LE - no creature comforts, light as possible - what NA motor - who knows?

JamesNoBrakes 11-16-2017 10:27 PM

The ZL1-1LE makes it damn near impossible to have an NA Z/28, the engine would have to go super-exotic to make the kind of power that would eclipse the 1LE and it's so damn fast and track-tuned already that I seriously doubt a lower HP NA engine around the 500-550hp level is going to have a chance in hell of beating it. Maybe if they did a flat-crank V12 like ferarri and was able to get 700 NA HP, but that ain't going to happen, no way they'd invest in those kind of materials and that kind of development. The only way I see this going down is with the LT5, with the only possible ace being a smaller displacement hot-V twin turbo, but again, I'd doubt they'd invest that much into it (but then, what goes in the mid-engined Corvette Z06/ZR1?). I think they'd have to push NA development to levels they just won't go to for the Z/28 to be NA.

Maybe I'll be wrong, but for them to eclipse the current ZL1-1LE by any significant amount would take something that will surpass so many hypercars that I just don't see it.


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