THE METH INJECTION Q&A FROM AN OLD GUY
 

Let me start off by saying everything has a place in the performance world and I am not against WM injection but feel like I need to share the potential downsides so people are more informed.

Probably one of the most asked questions I hear and see, because they are advertised to add power with no details as to how that power was achieved.

I have been dealing with Water meth Injection since 1981 LOL showing my age.

Q1. How much power will I get form adding Meth injection?

The truth is this is a loaded question and the short answer is NO, and the long answer is Yes there is potential.

Take a fully tuned car on gasoline, whether it is supercharged or NA turn the system on and LOSE 30 RWHP. TRUTH.

Q2. Then how do I get more power from WM injection?

Through Tuning, it must be combined with less fuel through the injection and more timing and this is where it gets hairy, a pump, line, solenoid, nozzle failure or running out of WM, can take out the engine when the fuel stops flowing you will have too much timing and not enough fuel for the air flow entering the engine.

Q3. Why does everyone recommend it on the internet.

LOL because crap flows downhill and gains momentum.

Q4. What applications best utilize WM injection

Water Meth injection works best on NON intercooled supercharged applications at what we deem at normal boost levels 8-12 psi. or very high boost applications that are intercooled but unable to keep IAT in check.

Q5. I don't have enough fuel to support my Supercharger can I just add WM injection.

This is a bad Idea on so many levels, NEVER use WM injection to supplement an inadequate fuel system for target HP.

Q6. At What IAT should I consider WM injection

I feel like 150 IAT is Normal and if your IAT is consistently above that start looking at the intercooler system first, not put a bandaid on a broken leg.

Once you have exhausted all options to improve your intercooler system then we start to consider WM injection.

Example on my personal car 1300 HP 427 with 25 PSI boost on Race gas My IAT starts a 100 degrees and was 200 degrees at the Stripe in a 1/4 Mile so this is a case where the enormous intercooler is just being overwhelmed by the heat production of the supercharger and needs some Help so I added Meth injection for intercooling.

Q7. I only have 91 octane but want to run 15 psi boost on my intercooled supercharged engine.

This is a case where Octane is the limiter and we can use Meth injection to supplement Octane and provide some IAT reduction but again refer to Q2. answer.

The better option is to add Octane.

Q.7 How much timing must be added to take advantage of WM injection?

This will vary widely with combination but in most cases 4-6 degrees before you start to see more power than on pump gasoline alone, SEE THE DANGER HERE?

Q.8 how much fuel do I have to pull from the tune.

That will vary widely based on combination, nozzle size, and controller settings, so the more WM you inject the more Fuel you must take away from the tune, SEE THE DANGER HERE?

Q.9 is WM dependable?

In my experience of dealing with it since 1981 the short answer is no, and that gets worse with installation and maintenance techniques.

Yes systems have gotten better but not to the point where I feel comfortable installing on every car that comes in the door like many shops.

Opportunity to sell something good or bad, OH they work great you need one, SMH.

I am not looking for any chest puffers to dispute anything stated here with their 1 experience with 1 system, this is meant to be informative discussion that anyone is welcome to ask more questions and add to the discussion.

As questions are asked I will add them to this thread along with my answers.

Very well said and I agree with the whole post. Thanks for sharing your years of experience with it.

Well said Ted and when I got my new 2650 we really backed off the Meth/water and basically almost turned it off last fall since it cooled down so much. I really didn't need it since it was getting pretty rich thru the traps of 11.25 and we were pulling some fuel along the way to lean it some and then went from 146 to 149 mph on the next pass by getting it back to about 12.0. Then the crank broke. Enough said on that.

I've come to appreciate "Old Guys" as I have become an older guy!! Thanks for the insight and advice.

I agree with Ted 100% on this one! If you want to make BIG HP make the necessary adjustments to the fuel system! I know it can be BIG $$$$ but a blown engines aint cheap to fix either! Nice write up Ted!

Words of wisdom and a LOT of experience raised here Ted.

I belong to that same generation, who has been experimenting with all possible "add on" fluids and gasses during the years. Started off a little later though - 1985 LOL

Today I would never wish to be dependent on any additional fluids (or gasses), than fuel blends from the energy/petroleum conglomerates and their supply chain - not even for cooling only (as Ted mentions correctly, for better cooling, the inter/charge-cooling measures should be improved.
The tune should be written up based on the petroleum coming from the tank - period!

Good info

Thanks for the write up. Not sure what prompted the timely public announcement, but I have a snow kit waiting for me to get to it for my 2T. I am sure I will find diminishing returns with it, unless I hang ten toes off the table to get that benefit with timing at my 22psi boost, but want to explore for track use anyways. I take it there is no fail-safe ever considered for some reason or another. I am very curious how well built-in protection will work knowing we can isolate IAT timing and also tighten down KR response in the E80A. Or the ecu is known to be unreliable or ineffective at that extreme? Or it just doesn't work like that? Maybe just convert it into a IC spray cooler?

You will run out of turbo before you can take advantage of water meth.

There are not many failsafes that I trust other than 1 set up I developed for a project years ago.

We installed a pressure sensor in the meth feed line and used it to trigger the scramble option on the boost controller so it would only add boost when pressure was high enough in the line.

No flow no boost increase.

Tuned it on 15 psi pump gas then set the boost controller for 22 on the scramble wire powered by the pressure sensor so more boost with 100% meth and no timing changes.

Being that you are controlling boost via the ECU I don't think you have that option.

I just want to say thank you for taking interest in my project. The boost curve is exactly what is driving my project. My objective is marked in blue pencil. its not hard to connect the dots. The new controllers are progressive and one variable is how sensitive and repeatable the controller is actually. I made an X where a possible spray ramp in point would be. I think i would use diluted meth (wash fluid) and watch the behavior for a while before full 50/50 dosing. maybe even step down the nozzle too. just watching and logging for a good while. LTG is very sensitive to changes. My power objective is to retain factory low end.



I see your on CT and not to far from southern NH. There's a good market for 2T work too.


Attachment 1017741

We service all american performance vehicles yours included.

Your calibration needs some work you should schedule an appointment for a dyno tune.

Ted.

Ted would you say that a 630cc single nozzle setup isn't really pushing much in terms of fueling?
i have a simple setup that CSP did for me and im just making sure i have my basis covered in case something happens to a pump or nozzle.
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...JEVmRsbU4zbWpR

The size of the nozzle is only part of the flow data, pressure at turn on, ramp rate, and finish pressure greatly alter the flow.

There is no way I can answer your question accurately.

To find answers to your question I would need your car here on my dyno to evaluate the tune and collect and evaluate data.

Ted.

The joys of living with the 2T. Ramp graphs are usually a good deal different than row graphs. Its always a work in progress. planned MW is blue pencil.



Attachment 1017925

IAT sensor relocation with Water Meth.
 

Something else I would like to add regarding the air intake sensor as a fail safe or for monitoring actual IAT.

I see so many people install the Air temp sensor right after the meth nozzle or just on the other side of the TB in the entry of the intake.

That placement in my opinion is too close and will not give real data.

The Sensor should be placed in the rear most portion of the intake and never make contact with any liquid.

It is an Air temp sensor and should not be used as a liquid sensor.

By being place in the rearmost portion of the intake furthest from the meth nozzle you will get real IAT readings that are entering the intake ports.

To many are bragging about how low thier IAT is after install WM with the sensor in the path of liquid.

Plus Depending on the tune may be falsely adding timing which can be catastrophic.

I agree and am also upgrading my fuel system to turn my meth way down. It works and makes power on all my builds but I really feel its a band aid covering up the $ it takes to upgrade to a real fuel system.

For those wonder, Ted speaks the truth.

The shop that installed and tuned my car with the Procharger D1SC swore you couldnt run the car on the full LT4 fuel system and make power without blowing it up. They pushed me towards the Alky Controls dual nozzle meth inj system.

1st thing Ted and I did when I brought him on board was turn the meth inj off, start over on the tune once the full LT4 fuel system was installed and get the car running right. It runs great on Ted's tuning with zero issues.

Since then and after very long conversations with the owner over Alky Controls I turned the meth inj system back on after some changes were made to it, but in my case I am using it for air charge cooling only. The mix is 50/50 of VP Racing M1 methanol and distilled water. I could probably even drop to 40/60 methanol/distilled water and prob will on the next batch. This will offer the least amount of change to the fueling.

Meth injection has its place, but as Ted said not as a fuel source. Ge the fuel system sorted out properly and then use meth injection as it was designed.

Exactly...and at this point should we even call them IAT's any longer and instead classify them as MAT(Manifold Air Temp)? It seems to me that MAT is far more important then the inlet air temp in front of the throttle body on a FI application.

I respect the comments (private and public) from those who have been at it for a good while. Coming at it with fresh eyes, Looked around to find Snows offering.

Clearly marketed as Boost Cooler, they make no pretense that its a temp mitigation tool. TO me it seems the MW thing has a lot of intertia as a tinker toy to throw more of anything that burns (explodes) in the combustion chamber.

I was on Aquamist for a while to, to find out they partnered with an OEM to offers it as a factory option on exotics. your talking full Failback integration of course.

In my project -the LTG is very sensitive and though its "new-wave" tech, my hypothesis is that with proper dosing and control, it will be a net plus with conservative, safe. tuning.

After I get it reviewed, If we have to load timing more than can be trimmed by KR safely I will be the first to say that it may not be a "performance convenience" product that works safely on the LTG anyways.

I agree.

I was talking with an engineer about airflow and fluid dynamics and placement of the IAT. I mentioned where I was placing my IAT versus putting it in the rear of the intake. The engineers response was it doesnt matter. The air is going to be "wet" at either location, in all actuality the air will be "wet" all the way into the combustion chamber until it is burned off.

With a supercharged application there is alot more airflow versus the N/A application. When I tested the 5gph nozzles in the Alky Controls system it was a super fine mist that came out of them. That coupled with the amount of air the supercharger pushes across the nozzles isnt going to allow much time for evaporation from the beginning point of injection to the rear of the intake manifold or into the combustion chamber.

I set my Alky Controls system to not come online until around 6-7 psi, so far the data logging shows it works very well. IAT timing changes can be corrected as well by zeroing out any timing additions that come from the IAT table.

Being smart with the usage of the meth inj will allow it to do what the injection system was designed to do, cool the air charge.

That is debatable, depending on where it is sprayed and at what temp it is sprayed in to.

Look at the temp at which Methanol converts from a liquid to a gas as well as Water.

The combination of the 2 will determine the temp at which this occurs.

If your air temp is above that number it will enter the combustion chamber as a Gas not a liquid.

Ted.

I agree Ted

I did as much research as I could while also asking an engineer of their input. I work with nothing but engineers so at times they are actually useful...lol

I plan on monitoring the logs for a bit and see how the car does. Hoping to get some dyno data in the next 4 weeks as well.

Good Deal.