2020 GT500 Versus ZL1 Versus C8 Versus Hellcat
 

We will see the 2020 GT500 soon! Exciting to see Ford get back in the game. And with Ford and Chevy dropping so many cars, it is a good omen for the sporty V8 (+hybrid :)) coupes (and possible 4 doors?) we love. Will it have the PDK and the 6 speed? The PDK if it has auto mode may be the very best auto/manual compromise. Even in the A10 ZL1 it is not much fun using the paddles. Even so the A10 convinced me to give up on manuals for now.

I am wondering where the new GT500 will fit in. Over 700 HP but 4,225 pounds? My loaded A10 ZL1 with a sun roof is 3,915 pounds with over 1/4 tank of gas and some crap in the car.

I am thinking the 2020 GT500 has to be a little faster than the Hellcats. But behind the Demon. But only if Ford avoids the built in bog Chevy handicaps the ZL1 with.

With the latest Mustang GT PP2 and the GT 350 we know Ford can make it handle. But will the GT500 stay with the ZL1 on a race track? I do think the ZL1 1LE will remain the ponycar track king.

https://st.hotrod.com/uploads/sites/...strip-Test.jpg

Ford had a few years to R&D the car. I'm sure they had both versions of the ZL1 in their stable too. I'm sure it will out perform the ZL1 when released.

For sure in the 1/4. But 4,225 pounds is a lot to throw around on a race track. 300 more than the ZL1.

I have long guessed that the GT500 will be one of the following. IF there is only one variant than it will be faster than the ZL1 in all aspects, but not quite as good on the track as the ZLE.

If there is say a "base" and R than the R better be faster than the ZLE or it will be a bad look for Ford given how much time they have had to build the damn thing. Also the price must be within reason.

If there is 1 version, I say it splits the ZL1 and ZLE price. If there is two, then I expect the GT500 variants to be right there in line with ZL1 and ZLE price. Speaking MSRP of course

I met someone at Atco a few weeks ago who said he worked for a Ford dealer as a mechanic and he said his place was taking deposits for the GT 500. But the only thing buyers are told is it will have more than 700 HP and you might not get much change from $100K. Maybe that is a GT500/R version or it was just a bunch of BS. I agree with you a base GT500 should be in the ZL1/Hellcat neighborhood. Still that 4,200+ weight bothers me. Weren't the last ones around 3,900 pounds?

I can see the GT500 coming in around 4050 if Ford made no attempt at lightening the car up and simply took a GT350 and beefed it up and added a blower, but 4225 seems absurd. Thats 435lbs heavier than a GT350.

Unless it completely stomps the ZL1 I doubt it'll generate any excitement here. I'm already bored with it and it ain't even out yet. Too much time has passed and there's been too much speculation about it that once it gets here it'll just be an expensive and fast car.

Ive had a couple GT500s in the pasted and was excited at the beginng, but I'm with you. They screwed around too much. Im over it, and it isnt even here yet. I feel the same about the Bronco we've been hearing about for at least the last five years.

A $100K Mustang and you still haven't added dealer markup will be a hard sell.

I agree.

It seems to me that Ford is heavily invested in MRC and while it is a great dual purpose suspension for both street and track, the ZL1 1LE DSSV suspension is all track oriented.

I consider the DSSV shocks on par with high-end coilovers that you see on track special cars. I don't see Ford going that hardcore track with the GT500, I think they still want to maintain dual purpose with it, as to where GM said F it, we want a TRACK car, ie ZL1 1LE

Agree ^ I think (and hope) Ford knows that. I don't care how fast it is, how good it performs. It's still a Mustang and I don't see a market for a 6 figure mustang. I go back to the 350R, they were able to undercut the Z/28 in price by 12K. I think Ford Knows where this car has to MSRP.

Again I say MSRP doesn't matter if you can't get one for that price. Whether Ford sets MSRP at $100K or at $70K and every dealership marks it up to $100K, it still costs $100K. We'll see but I'm not looking to buy one until I know all the details.

It’s hard to say without knowing more...

For sure expect 720bhp+ and the car to weight at least about 4k lbs, but likely more (GT500 has never been a light-weight and typically sports more tech and amenities than the lower Mustangs).

Big question is only RWD? Power-assist?

When it comes down to it, I think the GT350 will still be the track car. Sort-of like the SS 1LE vs ZL1 1LE: The ZL1 is faster on track, but takes more skill to get it there, otherwise the SS is basically right there.

Yea, the guy said $100k. But you are right, that must be with ADM.

I really dug the 2 door bronco concept. I would have seriously considered one depending on what powertrains were available but all the latest details are pointing to it being 4 door only and based off some shitty Isuzu looking thing.

I will argue that point with you forver lol. If ford sets the MSRP at a fair price and it dominates than it is a success.

There is no point in making this comparison. The MSRP will be in the $70's. Dealer mark up will be min $25k, putting it into GTR territory. I'd rather buy a GTR. But, can't wait to see it when it comes out. I'd buy one at MSRP all day, esp if it has the A10.

My hope is that Ford builds the new 500 to be a Street/Strip Terror. Let the GT350 play the track role.

I had one of the first 2013 GT500s to roll off the line. 662hp, dyno'd at 600rwhp stock. The car looked and sounded like a beast and at 3860lbs it was great on paper. First day I took it to the track and I realized GT500s are not track cars. (Then I spent tons of money trying to turn it into one... fail)

I believe this GT500 will be no different. It will be a 1/4 mile king and a serious modding platform. It will look and sound the part. It will be better at the track than a Hellcat but I am fairly certain it's not going to be an All-Star like the ZL1 or a Track-Star like the ZL1 1LE.

GT350 is and always will be the Mustang track car.

(my opinion)

Funny thing with these ZL1 1LEs, they are slow in the 1/4 mile and I would guess street action. Other funny thing is many seem to go up for sale shortly after purchase. So Ford please cater to your base and not MT and C&D, build the 500 to embarrass the competition where people actually use their cars street and strip. Don't worry about track times, build an R model for that.

Before I got my 2013 Audi TTRS, I was seriously looking at the GT500 too. I knew it wasn't the handling monster I wanted, so I took a trip to Griggs racing and met with him and even got a ride in their GR40 car, I almost went that route, but the TTRS won be over.

I couldn't disagree more. But everyone has their own interest for cars. The ZL1 1LE is not meant for drag races. Some of us like to track our cars.

What exactly are you disagreeing with?

The ZL1 1LE is far from slow in the quarter mile. Considering that it is a manual trans, and seeing what other cars with similar HP/TQ, IRS, and a manual trans are doing in the quarter mile, I'd say it is right on par. The problem is that the automatics are just soo much faster in the quarter mile than the manuals. So they seem slower by comparison. Example, all the fast times that people brag about concerning the new GT, those are all automatics. What is the manual trans GT doing? Mid 12s if that? LOL!! Is it slow? The ZL1 1LE is just a few ticks, if that, behind what the 13-14 GT500 was despite the GT500 having a lot more features that were more favorable for quarter mile runs and having more HP and being lighter. Plus GM built safety features into the ZL1s with manual trans to keep them from flying off the road. All that taken into consideration and it is still right on par with a stock Hellcat and the 13-14 GT500s (I mention those because that is the only thing Ford made that was on the same HP level as the ZL1).

These days if you want to compare what is fast then you have to go by what the auto equipped cars will do. I'm betting we'll also see a huge difference with the upcoming GT500 between the auto and manual versions. And if there is an R version that is track bred then I bet it'll be manual trans and I bet it'll be much "slower" than the auto equipped one.

The ZL1 1LE for what it is and can do is nothing short of amazing whether it is the quarter mile or on a track. I've said it many times before and I'll say it again...nothing in it's price range can beat it at anything. That goes for the ZL1 and the ZL1 1LE. Well except for maybe a GS Vette and a 1LZ Z06.

I guess we could say the same thing about the GT350...that many of them that sold went right up for sale shortly after with very little miles on them. Whether people were disappointed in the performance or whether the engine problems left them disappointed or if people realized that they weren't going to increase in value and thought they should ditch them before they lose any more money than they already did (ADMs) is up for speculation. But these types of cars always end up back at the dealerships with very low miles and only a few months to a year or two later. I bought my 2010 2SS/RS in 2012 with only 10K miles on it for what I thought was a steal. It happens all the time. Which is why some people avoid buying them brand new altogether and just wait until a used one shows up.

The GT500 won't be "embarrassing" anything. It might be faster than the ZL1...exactly how much faster and at exactly what and if the amount that it is faster is proportionate to the HP it will have all still remains to be seen. But you can't "embarrass" a car that is completely unchanged 3-4 MYs after it has been out, lol!! We already know Ford had their hands full trying to match the ZL1 considering they had to push the release date back twice. That shows just how powerful and fast the ZL1 actually is. If anything, it just shows exactly what it takes to outperform a ZL1...3-4 years of development and way more HP. LOL!!

I think BlaqWhole sums it up well below:

However i still maintain that a 2020 GT500 won't be a track (road course) focused car, I think it will be a powerful street and drag strip car like they've always been. I have a feeling though that this one will be the first GT500 to come with an Auto and it will be the 10spd because its a drag car and no one can deny how much faster an auto is at the drag strip.

They will put the A10 in it as an option. Whether or not there is a R version is another question. Considering the amount of time remaining in the S550 Gen I doubt it. We would have heard something already if it was going to be released for 2020. Which means an R version would have to wait until 2021 at which point it will basically be a 1 MY thing. If it does then there is no way anyone will get it anywhere even close to whatever MSRP will be. Which means the only good it'll do is to put dolla billz in the dealership's hands since they're gonna charge soo much ADM for it that it'll never be worth what people will pay for it. That is how that will go.

On the flip side of that coin, I think the GT500 will actually help improve ZL1 sales. Why? Because all the peple who are holding out for one will be disappointed when they see $20K (minimum) markups. So that will drive them right over to the Chevy lot for a nice brand new ZL1 that doesn't have markups and all that nonsense associated with it. Or maybe even a nice used one for even less. Or a Redeye. Kinda ironic tho that dealership greed will drive up the opposition's sales. I mean, what else are they gonna get...a Bullitt?? LOL!! People can trash talk ZL1s all they want. But the fact remains that if you want a mega HP car then the ZL1 is the absolute best bang for the buck on the planet.

The quote of the year right there. ^^^

The Alpha SS embarrassed the GT. In manual and auto forms, they weren’t even close. Three model years into Alpha Camaro, a substantial redesign of the GT resulted in a drivers race edge for the A10, the M6 still trailing by three to four tenths, a failed PP1 and a PP2 that can hang for one lap.

The Alpha ZL1 matches a Hellcat at the strip and beats a GT350R on a road course with no drama, grand touring comfort. Ford GT500 delayed ...and delayed and will arrive in the ZL1’s fourth year ...a lifetime in automotive cycles

The ZL1 1LE is in a class by itself. ...as is the SS 1LE

I doubt anyone on team Camaro will feel embarrassed.

And Chevy is gonna steal Ford's thunder, lol!! With the C8 coming out, if it offers crazy performance (which it will) and can be had without markups (which it will) then this will be an alternative for people who refuse to pay markups on the GT500. I can see the standard C8 offering enough shattering performance to keep up with the GT500 while still having full options. And then we'll see another Z06 and ZR1 on top of that along with the 7th Gen Camaro. I predict a win for Chevy in the 7th Gen just like the 6th Gen!!

https://www.carscoops.com/2018/12/20...BCsIY1vlyIXF1Q

Except I think the C8 is still a couple years away -- at least for a Z06/ZR1 version.

GT500 will have it's day. Ford is pretty good at the numbers game. The car will be absolutely excellent for bragging rights which is what 90% of consumers in this particular market care about (IMO).

You know, if you ask 1000 people: (Not based on any facts)
900 of them have heard of a Mustang and Camaro.
750 of them know what a "Shelby" GTxxx is.
50 (probably less) know what a ZL1 is, let alone a ZL1 1LE.

Chevy is pretty stupid with their "monikers". Too many BS three letter codes nobody cares. Most people you talk to only know "Camaro" and won't hear anything beyond that whether it be RS, SS, RS 1LE, SS 1LE, ZL1, ZL1 1LE... wtf.

My point is, most people buy the GT500 because they know what it is.

I think thats a good thing. I prefer to have the car that you don't see every day.

I don’t necessarily disagree but GT350 or GT500 isn’t any more distinctive than ZL1, 1LE, ...

People know what a GTxxx is because of a chicken farmer’s success in making them perform on a road course for two years and 50 years worth of marketing.

I agree, I don't think it's anything special about the Shelby other than it's story.

Where does the Alpha ZL1 match the Hellcat. The fastest test reviews put the ZL1 at 11:30, and Hellcat Charger at 11:00s., widebody version 10:90s.

I've never seen a test where the Hellcat did an 11 flat. Link?

IIRC, you’re a big Head 2 Head guy ...right?

Motor Trend Head to Head: ZL1 vs Hellcat Widebody
ZL1: 0-60: 3.5 seconds, 1/4 mile: 11.5 @ 124 mph
Hellcat Widebody- 0-60: 3.9 seconds, 1/4 mile: 11.9 @ 125.1 mph.

https://www.hellcat.org/threads/moto...debody.214907/

Yeah, I just recently watched that episode. I was a bit surprised that the ZL1 pulled away from the Hellcat despite the Hellcat not peeling out or sliding at launch. Everything else was pretty much as expected.

Uh oh. Now the Mustang guys will be saying the GT is faster than a Hellcat. :popcorn:

not true, Motor Trend went 12.1@118.8 in the GT so it is .2 slower than a WB HC stock. :thumbsup:

Forget magazines. I agree here. I have raced a number of Hellcats with my A10 ZL1. Both stock and lost every time except for once with DRs where the HC blew an axle.

I have seen them run slower times (auto to auto) than I was running when not lined up with me. But I never beat one. Maybe 10 times I lost even with a better RT. All good drivers though which is a big variable in the 1/4.

IMO Chevy torque management holds the ZL1 back. The ZL1 has a better power to weight ratio, even when considering HCs are underrated.

Were those Hellcats on the tires Dodge delivered?

Tire is holding the Dodge back. Should a ZL1 with its torque management tuned out be considered stock?