Originally Posted by hawk02 (Post 11170594)

I love how everyone says GM should just slapped the LT5 into the ZL1 for its swan song. But let's look at it realistically.

First off, The cost and time to re-certify the LT5 in the Alpha chassis would be enormous. No doubt the engine compartment would need modification, the suspension retuned to handle the additional horsepower, and the transmission beefed up just to mention a few. This would require hours of testing and re-engineering.

Secondly, how many people realistically would be willing to pay $100K for a Camaro? Only 3,434 ZL1s were manufactured in 2019 before the pandemic. If we assume GM averaged 3000 ZL1s a year over the six model years that's roughly 18,000 ZL1 owners out there. You all say you'd trade in your current ZL1 for an LT5 ZL1 in a heart beat but would you really? I bet it would be less than 10%.

GM produced less than 3000 C7 ZR1s. I'm betting Camaro ZL1 LT5 sales wouldn't even come close to that.

GM is in the business to make money for its shareholders. GM knows its market very well. And the market just isn't there to justify the cost to put the LT5 in the Camaro ZL1 even though our heart says we'd love to see it.

Originally Posted by ZX-10R (Post 11170650)

The market is there for an LT5 Camaro under $80k, it would sell like crazy - and I don't think the swap would be all that complicated - the A10 can handle the power. The real reason it won't happen is the EV transition

That's the blower these cars should have come with in the first place

Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 (Post 11170663)

If they just stuck an LT5 in the ZL1 in the first place, it probably would of sold a lot more, even if it was more expensive. Ford had no problem giving the GT500 more power than the Ford GT, and the GT500 is the most sought after of the 3 (Hellcat, ZL1 being the other two).

I know it’s not gonna happen, I know what it would or required to make it happen. I’m just saying I don’t agree with GMs decision to always try and keep the top tier Camaro in the top dog Corvettes shadow. But what do I know, I’m just some ass hole on a forum.

Originally Posted by minn19 (Post 11170699)

Somewhat agreed, I still don’t think the market for a LT5 Camaro is much different than the market for a LT4 Camaro. This thread kind of proves that, people bought LT4 equipped Camaros anyway over the LT5 Vette’s for the reasons stated. Same with me.

Originally Posted by CW3SF (Post 11170451)

I have owned multiple Vettes. I went ZL1 instead this time because there are just too many Vettes everywhere I look. I like having cars that have at least a little bit of uniqueness. I hardly ever see ZL1s on the road.

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium (Post 11170673)

GM had specific goals for the LT4, and the small 1.74L, harder hitting, faster spinning blower met their OEM goals. They felt the LS9 in the C6 ZR1 didn't make enough low end torque, so they were able to fill in that low-end torque, lighten the engine, make the engine shorter in height, and make a few extra hp with the LT4 over the LS9. OEM goals met. I don't think they were that concerned about what the aftermarket could or couldn't do with the blower once it left the factory.



They couldn't have stuck the LT5 in the ZL1 "in the first place" because the LT5 didn't debut in the ZR1 until after the 6th gen ZL1 had been in production for a couple of years. Plus, they weren't going to put the halo of all halo GM engines (LT5) in a Camaro in 2017 and not the Z06. I don't blame them for saving room for a ZR1. There is a pecking order and the ZR1 is on top. Camaro has an advantage in that the good stuff from the Corvette trickles down. e.g. LT1, LT4, etc., which I'm thankful for. There's also the economy of scales also with sharing the engine blocks with the V8 trucks.

The ZL1 and top dog at the time C7 Z06 co-existed for a couple of years with the same power ratings, so they didn't really sand bag it alongside the Z06. And the ZL1 is currently the most powerful GM product (until the C8 Z06 comes out with an extra 20 hp), and tied for the 2nd most powerful of all time.

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium (Post 11170673)

GM had specific goals for the LT4, and the small 1.74L, harder hitting, faster spinning blower met their OEM goals. They felt the LS9 in the C6 ZR1 didn't make enough low end torque, so they were able to fill in that low-end torque, lighten the engine, make the engine shorter in height, and make a few extra hp with the LT4 over the LS9. OEM goals met. I don't think they were that concerned about what the aftermarket could or couldn't do with the blower once it left the factory.



They couldn't have stuck the LT5 in the ZL1 "in the first place" because the LT5 didn't debut in the ZR1 until after the 6th gen ZL1 had been in production for a couple of years. Plus, they weren't going to put the halo of all halo GM engines (LT5) in a Camaro in 2017 and not the Z06. I don't blame them for saving room for a ZR1. There is a pecking order and the ZR1 is on top. Camaro has an advantage in that the good stuff from the Corvette trickles down. e.g. LT1, LT4, etc., which I'm thankful for. There's also the economy of scales also with sharing the engine blocks with the V8 trucks.

The ZL1 and top dog at the time C7 Z06 co-existed for a couple of years with the same power ratings, so they didn't really sand bag it alongside the Z06. And the ZL1 is currently the most powerful GM product (until the C8 Z06 comes out with an extra 20 hp), and tied for the 2nd most powerful of all time.

Originally Posted by zxspeedspec (Post 11170794)

As someone who's had significant track experience with various C7s, this is where I disagree. The C7 Z06 is untrackable. Between overheating, heatsoaking, and shit chassis, it's a pretty looking piece of shit for $120k. The ZLE is everything the C7 Z06 should've been.

An LT5 Camaro would be priced around $100k which would still leave me in the market, but remember how hard it was for GM to sell the $72k Z/28 back in 2014?

Most people don't drive either hard enough to justify either, but as someone who tracks often and participates in other motorsports, the LT5 in the Alpha chassis would destroy any record times set by the C7 ZR1. GM is not going to allow that. They won't even acknowledge that the ZLE is faster than the Z06 and as someone that's driven both I can tell you the Alpha chassis is faster.

Originally Posted by Snowwolfe (Post 11170809)

Wrong. The current CTV5 Blackwing has more HP than the ZL1.

Originally Posted by TXCSSU (Post 11170811)

I'm guessing you meant to say that the ZL1 is the most powerful Chevy product as the CT5 BW and now the GMC Hummer exist (even if some people scoff at 1000 electric HP, HP is HP IMO).

I agree completely with the rest. We have the most powerful Camaro ever made, and currently the highest HP rated Chevy product. And we aren't having to pay crazy amounts for that power.

On a side note, my neighbor with the C8 has inexplicably traded it in for an older model Z06. I guess he'd rather have the higher HP number over a car that can do more with less. In all fairness, he leaves his summer only tire outfitted cars out in frigid temperatures, so he's most likely the superficial type.

Originally Posted by minn19 (Post 11170815)

I think you actually are agreeing with me. You and about 7 other people would buy a 100k Camaro IMO.

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium (Post 11170834)

An LT5 ZL1 wouldn’t be $100k. It would be more like GT500 money (msrp). If Ford can do a 760 hp pony car for mid 70s msrp, then GM can as well.

Originally Posted by minn19 (Post 11170835)

Point me to one I/we can get for mid 70s. The best real world I could do was 85k ish on a new one and as I said I still went for the ZL1 at 72k MSRP. Used all seem to be that or more and nobody is budging. At least as of a month ago.

Even pre covid GT350s (non Rs) were 75k or more forever.

I was using his numbers.

Why would GM or any company do that for a money loss on a extremely low selling niche product? Regardless of shareholders etc etc.

Edit: I do agree if they had it ready to go when the ZL1 came out it would of made sense just to go with that. I do believe that would of poached some Vette sales though.

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium (Post 11170842)

Obviously dealer markup puts them past msrp. But Ford’s msrp of a 760 hp pony car with a DCT is mid 70s. These competitors stay within a stone’s throw of each other. LT5 ZL1 might be a bit more expensive, but not $25k higher msrp than a GT500. A Hellcat Redeye starts at $77k for comparison.

Originally Posted by TXCSSU (Post 11170845)

The tinfoil hat guy in me figures that GM, Ford, and Chrysler got together in a dark room and decided that one would do handling well, one would do top HP numbers well, and the other would split the difference. The cost of the federal government going after them for collusion would probably be cheaper than if they each tried to "one-up" each other over the course of their respective models. Pushing the envelope for an engine can get expensive and can lead to a lot of costly recalls if not done right. Considering I've got 650 HP at my disposal at 16.7 combined MPG, I'm perfectly fine with it. And, if I feel like I need more then I know that there are tuners that love massaging the LT4 for more power with some of them even giving you a decent little warranty on their work. We should really take the time to appreciate the LT4 as it is a dying breed. I would be perfectly ok if GM pulled the plug (I know bad ironic pun) on the ICE Camaro with the LT4 as the top dog so I can say that I owned the most powerful ICE Camaro that GM produced.