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Old 06-30-2010, 04:56 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperTomcat View Post
A few notes:

Yes, it could get the new engine. Yes it could be faster, yes it could also kill the new SRT8 Challenger. Yes it could have 440 HP but less torque than the current LS3. Yes it could be awesome.

Yes a Z28, LSA powered Camaro could beat the new 6.4L Hemi Challenger. Yes it could kill it.

But it isnt, its speculation. The 6.4L IS going into the Challenger SRT8 with 480 HP. Basic bolt on mods (such as a catback, tune, longtubes and CAI) will put it over 500 crank HP, if not closer to 525. If it does get a new automatic dont expect the overall weight to raise more than 20 pounds, and it will already be lighter due to the fact it is based on the 5.7L Hemi, and not the 6.1L.

The simple fact is Dodge and Ford have put new engines in their vehicles and have listened to complaints and suggestions. The 2011 Mustang in every trim has either recieved new engines or raises in power. The 2011 Challenger SRT8 has a new engine and is getting a better interior and other changes.

What has the Camaro recieved? a HUD and a new color of paint for the SS. Now GM couldnt do anything really, but they MUST *MUST* do something other than throw a convertible onto the market for next year. The Z28 isnt confirmed, so it doesnt count, I'm sorry.



GM is now compeletly behind in the 2011 HP/Pony/Muscle car wars and has lost the 2011 model year features/numbers war in bragging rights except for 2010 sales. The 2011 GT500 with 550 HP and the 480 HP SRT8 Challenger both overpower and can outrun a LS3 SS. Of course drivers will make the difference.

Do something GM, 2010 was so awesome for you, and I want 2012 to be again awesome. Take 2011 to understand that you cant sit back and gloat, or you WILL lose the war, no matter what battles you won.
What has Chrysler done with the Challenger really? Right now the 6.4 Hemi is about as real as the Z28. Ford just put a real engine in the mustang after how many years, dodge has had the same engines since '08 in the Chally and now in it's 2nd year the Camaro has to really change to stay competitive?
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:57 PM   #44
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I think by now we all agree here...

In the 90s and 2000s horsepower was the big deal, but now we've all gone back to our roots because we know what makes our passion different everyone else's...that magical torque number...and by now we all want GM to put a high torque motor in the Camaro regaurdless of the horsepower, luckily they monitor this site and even a few members work for GM so most likely they'll hear and come calling, then the Mustang will have to catch up again >=} hahaha

Personally im looking forward to Mopar pulling something out of nowhere, id LOVE for Mopar to jump back on board in good ole' Mopar style by suddenly dropping this new motor for the Challenger that is lower horsepower, maybe like 320 or so but something rediculous like 500 torque hahaha, i would love that so much, i want Mopar back in this thing! im tired of just Camaro, Mustang, Camaro, Mustang, Camaro, Mustang...
If Mopar were to put out a new 7.0L in a Challenger with 475 HP and 625 TQ...it would win.

Period, it would win performance wars and eat GT500's for breakfast.
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:58 PM   #45
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Yes. Mosts tests/reviews show the new Mustang is faster 0-60, and either even or marginally faster in the 1/4.

If the 5.0 is a high-winding engine, so is the LS3. The 5.0's redline just 150 RPM higher than the LS3, and it makes its peak torque at a LOWER RPM than the LS3.

yes... but engine to engine all the numbers are lower for the 5.0 than the LS3.... I'm not talking about which car is faster

Put an LS3 in the new mustang and it's be a rocket! haha not that it isn't already
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:01 PM   #46
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<snip

I think you're misunderstanding though, I"m not saying DON"T put this engine in the Camaro. I'm saying put it in the Camaro that is intended for HP numbers which is the Z28... A road racer. Keep the high TQ high displacement motor in the SS, because a muscle car should be about trying to pull the front wheels off the ground.

snip>
Couldn't agree with you more. If they want to keep the history intact, the Z28 should be the lightweight road racer, and the SS the drag car.

I don't know many details on the upcoming Boss Mustang, but if they do it right they'll keep it NA, raise the rev limit, and keep it light. I just hope they don't add FI, the GT500 already has that covered.
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:02 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vega View Post
I think by now we all agree here...

In the 90s and 2000s horsepower was the big deal, but now we've all gone back to our roots because we know what makes our passion different everyone else's...that magical torque number...and by now we all want GM to put a high torque motor in the Camaro regaurdless of the horsepower, luckily they monitor this site and even a few members work for GM so most likely they'll hear and come calling, then the Mustang will have to catch up again >=} hahaha

Personally im looking forward to Mopar pulling something out of nowhere, id LOVE for Mopar to jump back on board in good ole' Mopar style by suddenly dropping this new motor for the Challenger that is lower horsepower, maybe like 320 or so but something rediculous like 500 torque hahaha, i would love that so much, i want Mopar back in this thing! im tired of just Camaro, Mustang, Camaro, Mustang, Camaro, Mustang...

I have always been of the school of thought when building my engines that I like to build for TQ, and the HP will be there. With materials these days you can get a high cu. in. engine to spin pretty fast which ultimately results in high peak HP as well so really you can have the best of both worlds.
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:04 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperTomcat View Post
If Mopar were to put out a new 7.0L in a Challenger with 475 HP and 625 TQ...it would win.

Period, it would win performance wars and eat GT500's for breakfast.

Well realisticly ANY of the three with a motor putting those numbers would win the war for that year but thats not even speculation thats just wishful thinking haha, i really wanna see Mopar get amped up in this thing again, im a GM supporter but i love Mopar too, they're kind of my happy void between GM and Ford haha, and then the universe just falls off into a black hole after those three...nothing else exists XD
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:20 PM   #49
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Ohhh, i cant believe i forgot to mention this! haha, im a huge supporter of E85 so id LOVE to see an E85 engine in both the Camaro and Corvette, E85 is way cleaner, home grown, despite rumors and trash talk does NOT effect the food supply at all, it has a higher octane rating and such is a better performance fuel, AND its cheaper than gasoline! Its all around perfect. Yesterday i was driving around Indiana and saw gas for $2.71 and E85 for $2.08, a Corvette with an E85 motor would be an amazing accomplishment and would go a long way to return the Corvette to its All American Icon status, all the while smashing the stupid ideas of putting FI V6s in our top of the line sport/muscle cars, and that might be one big step towards shifting the whole world's fuel supplies back in our favor, i love the idea of E85 muscle cars, and what better car to take the first step and get everyone else on board than the legendary Corvette?

I love GM more and more every day...
xD
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:28 PM   #50
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I like that idea too, but I heard somewhere that you don't get as good of mileage with it. Doesn't have the same energy content as gasoline. so the cost would probably end up being a wash or mabye slightly more because you'd fill up more often. I can't prove that, and i've never driven an E85 vehicle. but that's just what I've heard.

But I've heard you can get more power out of it! and I like that!
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:44 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by wylde1 View Post
I like that idea too, but I heard somewhere that you don't get as good of mileage with it. Doesn't have the same energy content as gasoline. so the cost would probably end up being a wash or mabye slightly more because you'd fill up more often. I can't prove that, and i've never driven an E85 vehicle. but that's just what I've heard.

But I've heard you can get more power out of it! and I like that!
That is true! The reason we havent converted to E85 yet is because it does in fact burn quicker than gas and in such gets worse mileage, so far E85 has been around 50 cents cheaper than gas but when compared mileage-wise gas would go farther on less money, the people behind E85 have been trying to refine the process of creating it to simplify it and make it cheaper so they can sell it cheaper and eventually the cost of MPG will balance out or hopefully surpass gasoline. Im not exactly sure on it but i think the lose in MPG is 2 to 3 miles per gallon by switching, but at $2 a gallon and gas slowely on the rise now (im not speculating cause last year everyone said gas was going back to $4 and i told them they were full of it haha) but if gas keeps rising and E85 stays at about $2 it should surpass gas soon

But i did learn however that the reason you use 3 or so more MPG on E85 is because you would be using it in a motor optimixed for gasoline, Jay Leno did an interview with a guy who built an E85 hot rod and said he built the motor optimized for E85 rather than gas and he gets the same mileage with both, though he makes a good bit more power on E85 cause of the higher octane, you can convert any car though easily but you will suffer a few MPGs, i wonder if GM has taken this into account and if the MPG loss will still be there on this motor if its optimized for both?

These are interesting times indeed haha
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:50 PM   #52
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:51 PM   #53
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:27 PM   #54
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I’m sorry, but there Is a Replacement for Displacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by wylde1 View Post
Nothing is wrong with modern technology, but don't get so hung up on HP/Litre being the greatest accomplishment an engine can achieve. HP isn't the be all end all. Direct injection and VVT isn't exactly the 2nd coming either. a lower displacement high HP motor makes power very differently, and it FEELS very different. HP alone can give you top speed, not necessarily acceleration.

it's Torque that throws your head back. HP is a by product of TQ (HP = TQ*RPM/5252). TQ is the FORCE pushing you forward and HP is the ENERGY your putting out.

The LS3's peak tq is at higher revs yes, but it makes high average torque through the whole range and that's another factor that is important. Lower displacement motors may make the same peak numbers, or better, but the AVERAGE power is usually lower.

I think you're misunderstanding though, I"m not saying DON"T put this engine in the Camaro. I'm saying put it in the Camaro that is intended for HP numbers which is the Z28... A road racer. Keep the high TQ high displacement motor in the SS, because a muscle car should be about trying to pull the front wheels off the ground.

Neither motor is "bad" and neither one will be "better", they will just make different power different ways, some may prefer one way, others the opposite.

EDIT: I should quantify that last statement. The newest technology motor may be better in more aspects than just the dyno curve. And the TQ may not drop all that much if any because of the newer technology. I'm basing my statements here on generalizations of EXISTING engines. Who knows what the gen V dyno curve will look like, I don't, You don't, I doubt even Fbodfather does yet. It may just turn out to be a mule, god knows chevy's done that to us in the past.
Yes, a 5.5 liter won’t have the torque of a 6.2 liter, but it will likely have more torque per liter, and it will likely be geared to use it more effectively. Bottom line, torque to the rear wheels should be as good or better. If I have to drop it 500 rpms higher, I’ll live with that to get the better economy.
Hopefully they will put the car on a 200lb diet when they release it with the new motor. That should do it.

I was speaking hypothetically with the GM team at the Carlisle show about what I thought would be a good next gen motor. I received an answer from one to the effect that there was no need to guess, he had already seen it ( I also believe he was piloting one of the Camaro Convertibles during the 5 car excursion earlier in the month.) BTW, I’m sure Fbodfather knows as well, he runs in the same pack. Obviously that was as much detail as I was going to get. When talking to another GM team member on the broader picture (across all the model line) he indicated an increasing shift to forced induction. Hey, maybe we might see a FI 5.5 for the Z28 one day??? (BTW- when I asked when we would see a Z28 convertible, the reply was there has to be a Z28 coupe first)
So those of you (like me) who are old school, “there is no replacement for displacement” have to realize, it’s going to be replaced if we like it or not. Face it, like Mad Max, we have the “last of Big V8s”.
Hell, It could be worse, GM could be planning to have a volt derivative for the Camaro. (Don’t get me wrong, I’m excited about the serial electric power train,……just not excited to see it in a Camaro )
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:41 PM   #55
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I think that gm has some serious v8 firepower headed our way within the next few years. I also think that the new ford 5.0 motors output is great but is not that impressive given that it is a clean sheet ground up designed dohc v8. you only have to look at fords 6.2 v8 raptor f150 to compare gm ls 6.2 v8 for output. The ford is ohc and the ls is ohv but the output is similar. The ls engines go back to '97-'98 with the newer dodge hemi being a loose copy of the ls engines and the new ford v8's just starting to hit the street to give our ls engines a run for it's money. This competition will only make gm better in the long run.

The next gen v8 will come in various displacement, do not read too much into the 5.5 ltr v8 for c7 corvette hype. This is what gm is using in new gt2 class c6r corvettes per the new american le mans series (alms) rules that take effect next year on engine displacement/hp restrictions. Corvette racing is using the upcoming next gen v8 but the displacement is not production spec, per Corvette racing's head Doug Fehan.

I believe gm will have a ohv and dual cam engines built from the next gen v8 that will serve various mission/applications based on the info below:

http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/new...eunionuaw.html

econd United Auto Workers Agreement Reveals General Motors' Potential Future Truck Plans
By: Mike Levine Posted: 10-01-07 12:30 PT
© 2007 PickupTruck.com

Page: [1]

Update #1: 10-01-07 12:55 PT

I've clarified my comment about SIDI being similar to a diesel. Both diesels and SIDI engines directly inject fuel into the combustion chamber. I've added text that diesels rely on high compression ratios to auto-ignite the fuel-air mixture, whereas SIDI motors still use a spark plug.

A reader also brought to my attention that Honda uses cylinder deactivation in its 3.5-liter SOHC V6 engine. My point - and it should have been stated more clearly - is that cylinder deactivation hasn't seen fuel economy returns worth the investment necessary for a full size truck's overhead cam V8 - or else Toyota and Ford would have offered this in their OHC V8s already.

------

This is the toughest story I've written.

On Friday afternoon I watched the newswires and Wall Street Journal break information about GM's future product plans that were revealed in the "White Book" agreement between GM and the UAW settling last week's strike.

One of the items that caught my attention was the name of GM's next full size truck platform, C3XX. So, I went and did some more background searching on the 'C3XX' identifier, using Google.

To my surprise a second, internal UAW-GM document appeared in Google's search results. The document can be found on the Future of the Union website and Google's publicly available search cache.

On Friday the document ranked much higher in the search results, before the "White Book" news containing the 'C3XX' term at more popular websites moved up in Google's page rankings.

The information about what's contained in that document is in the story below.

After wrestling with this decision, and consulting with several colleagues, I've decided to publish this story because I believe it's relevant to the "White Book" news and GM's current state of affairs with the UAW.

- M.L.

A document found online (using Google) at the Future of the Union website suggests that General Motors is preparing to substantially overhaul the engine lineup used in its next generation full size trucks.

Future of the Union has published an internal memorandum of understanding that contains detailed information about contract negotiations that took place in June 2007 among the United Auto Worker (UAW) union, General Motors (GM), and GM’s largest supplier, Delphi.

The document contains GM’s future product commitments to UAW-represented employees at Delphi, similar to the future product timelines that emerged from the recent strike settlement contract between GM and the UAW.

Most notable are the powertrain components that Delphi is expected to supply for use in the C3XX truck program, starting in 2011. The C3XX platform will replace the current GMT 900 architecture that underpins the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra full size pickups.

According to the document, C3XX pickups will feature a new 'Gen V' 6.2-liter dual overhead cam (DOHC) V8 engine - a major departure from GM's traditional overhead valve (OHV) pushrod engine design used in its trucks, like the ‘Gen IV’ 403-horsepower / 417 lb-feet L92 6.2-liter V8 under the hood of the GMC Sierra Denali. The only DOHC V8 GM currently offers is Cadillac’s 4.6-liter Northstar engine.

The Gen V 6.2 motor will use variable valve timing (VVT) like the Gen IV 6.2, but the use of dual overhead cams holds the promise of four valves per cylinder instead of the current two valves, for better intake and exhaust flow and increased power. This is a similar setup to the 5.7-liter i-Force V8 used in the Toyota Tundra, but the Gen V 6.2 will also offer GM's active fuel management (AFM) system. AFM shuts down half the cylinders during steady state running for improved fuel economy – a feature not currently available for the i-Force. Up until this point, it’s been conventional wisdom that implementing cylinder deactivation on OHC engines is impractical for reasons of cost and complexity.

Pushrod engines won’t be disappearing entirely from GM’s truck line. A new ‘Gen V’ OHV V8 will replace the current 320-hp / 340 lb-feet 5.3-liter V8. Apparently the final displacement hasn’t been determined yet, because it’s referred to as 5X.

The new 5X gasoline engine will feature spark ignition direct injection (SIDI), similar to a diesel's fuel injection setup but still using a spark plug to ignite the fuel instead of diesel's high compression ratio that causes the fuel air mixture to auto-ignite. SIDI places the fuel injector right inside the combustion chamber, so fuel can be directly mixed with air entering the chamber during the intake stroke instead of before it enters the chamber, like in a conventional multi-port fuel injected gas engine. This approach enables a leaner burn of the fuel at higher compression ratios than current gas engines, resulting in greater fuel economy, cleaner emissions, and more power.

Initial production of both engines is slated to start in 2011 with full production in 2012.

Of course, it's possible that because this information is still approximately three years out in time, plans detailed in this document for the full size truck powertrains could still change.

Contacted for comment, a GM spokesperson told PickupTruck.com that GM doesn't make statements about documents like this.

There was no phone number or names listed to contact the Future of the Union website for comment.

Page: [1]

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Old 06-30-2010, 06:43 PM   #56
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I'll mod mine and it will have more displacement more hp & more TQ
then i shall kick 5.0 mustang + 6.4 challenger + ( 5.5 camaro :P ) ass
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