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Old 06-30-2010, 02:28 PM   #26
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Oh does that engine compartment look nice and clean!!
It looks like you just opened up a jewelery box, and the engine is the diamond.
LOL! nice.
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Old 06-30-2010, 02:48 PM   #27
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I think this is exciting. When I imagine a smaller, lighter Camaro paired with this really advanced proposed new engine, I'm thinking the 6th gen Camaro will be a solid mid 12 second car. And once you add forced induction to the mix, the car will be scary fast.

I'm just wondering if the new engine will have higher compression than the LS3's? Most likely.
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Old 06-30-2010, 02:50 PM   #28
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While the next hemi willl be nice it's still too heavy of a car especially if they keep the iron block a few mods and the whatever little advantage it has will be negated.Plus price wise SRT will compete more with the Z28 which will spank the SRT if it goes into production plus the aftermarket for dodge sucks compared to Chevy.


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for SS?


only cause thats a while away... (next gen camaro)
and already... the refreshed Chally SRT-8 is gonna be packin' 480HP...very soon.

the camaro (in the HP wars) needs to top 'em all! (SS-wise, not counting Z28)
we shall see....
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Old 06-30-2010, 03:11 PM   #29
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A few notes:

Yes, it could get the new engine. Yes it could be faster, yes it could also kill the new SRT8 Challenger. Yes it could have 440 HP but less torque than the current LS3. Yes it could be awesome.

Yes a Z28, LSA powered Camaro could beat the new 6.4L Hemi Challenger. Yes it could kill it.

But it isnt, its speculation. The 6.4L IS going into the Challenger SRT8 with 480 HP. Basic bolt on mods (such as a catback, tune, longtubes and CAI) will put it over 500 crank HP, if not closer to 525. If it does get a new automatic dont expect the overall weight to raise more than 20 pounds, and it will already be lighter due to the fact it is based on the 5.7L Hemi, and not the 6.1L.

The simple fact is Dodge and Ford have put new engines in their vehicles and have listened to complaints and suggestions. The 2011 Mustang in every trim has either recieved new engines or raises in power. The 2011 Challenger SRT8 has a new engine and is getting a better interior and other changes.

What has the Camaro recieved? a HUD and a new color of paint for the SS. Now GM couldnt do anything really, but they MUST *MUST* do something other than throw a convertible onto the market for next year. The Z28 isnt confirmed, so it doesnt count, I'm sorry.



GM is now compeletly behind in the 2011 HP/Pony/Muscle car wars and has lost the 2011 model year features/numbers war in bragging rights except for 2010 sales. The 2011 GT500 with 550 HP and the 480 HP SRT8 Challenger both overpower and can outrun a LS3 SS. Of course drivers will make the difference.

Do something GM, 2010 was so awesome for you, and I want 2012 to be again awesome. Take 2011 to understand that you cant sit back and gloat, or you WILL lose the war, no matter what battles you won.
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Old 06-30-2010, 03:52 PM   #30
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Why are so many assuming that a 5.5L DI engine will lose a lot of torque? I can't imagine the torque curves on the the new engine and LS3 would be that different. It is going to maintain the same basic cam in block, OHV architecture. And besides, the LS3s current 6700 redline, and peak power/torque coming at 5900/4600 isn't what I would call a low-RPM biased motor to begin with. I don't see the new engine's power and torque curves moving up the RPM band a whole lot from that.

Even if it does, there is always an easy solution to a 10% (hypothetical) torque loss: 10% shorter gearing (or in the case of the 6th gen Camaro, 10% less weight). I am confident that in the new, lighter 6th gen platform, this engine will accelerate the car better at all RPMs, so we'll be able to look at the fuel economy increase as a bonus, not a trade off.
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:01 PM   #31
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That is why I wanted the first run of camaros when i heard about the cafe standards a while back, I had a feeling the Government would restrict the HP we could have from the factory, I would not take anything for my LS3 6 speed manual I Love this Car. Got 21,000 mikes on her and plan to drive forever.
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:07 PM   #32
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Ford did add the 5.slow, but modified it in every way possible to give it the horsepower it needed, you really cant do much to make it faster. This is a huge step backwards and the sales will show, Thank God I got mine when I did, I will never put a lower displacement engine in it when this one is finally done.

I actually feel sorry for the new corvette, the European market is going to slaughter it!!!!
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:14 PM   #33
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The new engine will have MORE power in a LIGHTER car. What's the problem? What is wrong with modern technology?
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:18 PM   #34
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i am happy... now my 6.2L will be even more rare in the future
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:24 PM   #35
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Ford did add the 5.slow, but modified it in every way possible to give it the horsepower it needed, you really cant do much to make it faster. This is a huge step backwards and the sales will show,
Except for the exhaust, longtubes, tune and drag radials than caused the 2011 5.0 to run high 11's. The old argument "there isnt much left to do" was killed weeks ago. The 5.0 has turned out to be an incredible engine.

Less displacement=less torque. I severely doubt the new 5.5L will produce as much torque as the outgoing 6.2L. Torque is what throws you around in the seat, makes the car accelerate hard and gets you to speed, HP keeps you there. Mind you both are units of measures of the same force, and you CAN make up for a lack of torque by adding ALOT of HP.

A modern 7.0L will not crank out near as much torque as an old 7.0L big block. As they say..there is not replacement for displacement.
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:26 PM   #36
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i am happy... now my 6.2L will be even more rare in the future
Not quite.

What it means is that future production vehicles will be using the new engine. They'll still be producing replacement LS3/L99's, they have to.

Nothing about the Camaro is going to be rare this year, the uniqueness is past. Same with the Challenger and Mustang.
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:27 PM   #37
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The new engine will have MORE power in a LIGHTER car. What's the problem? What is wrong with modern technology?
Kind of like the 5.0 with its high redline and technologically advanced engine in the lighter Mustang?

Right?
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:32 PM   #38
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Im cool with it haha
Hell just look at older motors vs. the LS line, most of them are smaller than most of the big bruisers of the 60s and 70s yet spark up the same power and way better fuel efficiency so who's to say this wont do the same? Any extra power technology can squeeze out of every little drop of gas is cool by me haha, i just dont want torque numbers to fall (which they wont, look at Ford's new 5.0) but really my main concern (and also with LS engines) is i dont want them sounding all wrong, the LS engines sound decent but its no substitute for even my 90's 305 haha, i like power and i like all the senses that come with it xD
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:40 PM   #39
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Kind of like the 5.0 with its high redline and technologically advanced engine in the lighter Mustang?

Right?
Yes. Mosts tests/reviews show the new Mustang is faster 0-60, and either even or marginally faster in the 1/4.

If the 5.0 is a high-winding engine, so is the LS3. The 5.0's redline just 150 RPM higher than the LS3, and it makes its peak torque at a LOWER RPM than the LS3.
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:40 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by MTMTE View Post
Ford did add the 5.slow, but modified it in every way possible to give it the horsepower it needed, you really cant do much to make it faster. This is a huge step backwards and the sales will show, Thank God I got mine when I did, I will never put a lower displacement engine in it when this one is finally done.

I actually feel sorry for the new corvette, the European market is going to slaughter it!!!!
I hate to stick up for Ford on a GM forum since im partial to GM, but to Ford's credit they made an incredible engine in the 5.0 and the market for that engine will cause GM to create a better, lighter, more powerful, more fuel efficient motor for us, and then Ford will do it again, then GM, and so on and so on...
But also dont forget that the new 5.0 is not a 5.0 at all, the only thing this 5.0 has in common with the classic one is the liter displacement but thats the only thing, not even the cubic inches match up. Ford is taking a page out of Mopar's book when Mopar started producing the Hemi, which by all means is NOT a Hemi its just a trademark name, but its the same idea.

And wait, didnt everyone say that about the Corvette, then the Camaro, then the Cobalt in the Japanese market? And they had to keep going further and further down the list cause every GM car kept knocking out its foreign competition? haha, be it Asia or Europe i have confidence that GM can and most definatly will compete, especially in the new generation Corvette which looks like a killer already and we dont even have many specs on it yet haha
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:46 PM   #41
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The new engine will have MORE power in a LIGHTER car. What's the problem? What is wrong with modern technology?

Nothing is wrong with modern technology, but don't get so hung up on HP/Litre being the greatest accomplishment an engine can achieve. HP isn't the be all end all. Direct injection and VVT isn't exactly the 2nd coming either. a lower displacement high HP motor makes power very differently, and it FEELS very different. HP alone can give you top speed, not necessarily acceleration.

it's Torque that throws your head back. HP is a by product of TQ (HP = TQ*RPM/5252). TQ is the FORCE pushing you forward and HP is the ENERGY your putting out.

The LS3's peak tq is at higher revs yes, but it makes high average torque through the whole range and that's another factor that is important. Lower displacement motors may make the same peak numbers, or better, but the AVERAGE power is usually lower.

I think you're misunderstanding though, I"m not saying DON"T put this engine in the Camaro. I'm saying put it in the Camaro that is intended for HP numbers which is the Z28... A road racer. Keep the high TQ high displacement motor in the SS, because a muscle car should be about trying to pull the front wheels off the ground.

Neither motor is "bad" and neither one will be "better", they will just make different power different ways, some may prefer one way, others the opposite.

EDIT: I should quantify that last statement. The newest technology motor may be better in more aspects than just the dyno curve. And the TQ may not drop all that much if any because of the newer technology. I'm basing my statements here on generalizations of EXISTING engines. Who knows what the gen V dyno curve will look like, I don't, You don't, I doubt even Fbodfather does yet. It may just turn out to be a mule, god knows chevy's done that to us in the past.
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:52 PM   #42
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I think by now we all agree here...

In the 90s and 2000s horsepower was the big deal, but now we've all gone back to our roots because we know what makes our passion different everyone else's...that magical torque number...and by now we all want GM to put a high torque motor in the Camaro regaurdless of the horsepower, luckily they monitor this site and even a few members work for GM so most likely they'll hear and come calling, then the Mustang will have to catch up again >=} hahaha

Personally im looking forward to Mopar pulling something out of nowhere, id LOVE for Mopar to jump back on board in good ole' Mopar style by suddenly dropping this new motor for the Challenger that is lower horsepower, maybe like 320 or so but something rediculous like 500 torque hahaha, i would love that so much, i want Mopar back in this thing! im tired of just Camaro, Mustang, Camaro, Mustang, Camaro, Mustang...
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:56 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by ViperTomcat View Post
A few notes:

Yes, it could get the new engine. Yes it could be faster, yes it could also kill the new SRT8 Challenger. Yes it could have 440 HP but less torque than the current LS3. Yes it could be awesome.

Yes a Z28, LSA powered Camaro could beat the new 6.4L Hemi Challenger. Yes it could kill it.

But it isnt, its speculation. The 6.4L IS going into the Challenger SRT8 with 480 HP. Basic bolt on mods (such as a catback, tune, longtubes and CAI) will put it over 500 crank HP, if not closer to 525. If it does get a new automatic dont expect the overall weight to raise more than 20 pounds, and it will already be lighter due to the fact it is based on the 5.7L Hemi, and not the 6.1L.

The simple fact is Dodge and Ford have put new engines in their vehicles and have listened to complaints and suggestions. The 2011 Mustang in every trim has either recieved new engines or raises in power. The 2011 Challenger SRT8 has a new engine and is getting a better interior and other changes.

What has the Camaro recieved? a HUD and a new color of paint for the SS. Now GM couldnt do anything really, but they MUST *MUST* do something other than throw a convertible onto the market for next year. The Z28 isnt confirmed, so it doesnt count, I'm sorry.



GM is now compeletly behind in the 2011 HP/Pony/Muscle car wars and has lost the 2011 model year features/numbers war in bragging rights except for 2010 sales. The 2011 GT500 with 550 HP and the 480 HP SRT8 Challenger both overpower and can outrun a LS3 SS. Of course drivers will make the difference.

Do something GM, 2010 was so awesome for you, and I want 2012 to be again awesome. Take 2011 to understand that you cant sit back and gloat, or you WILL lose the war, no matter what battles you won.
What has Chrysler done with the Challenger really? Right now the 6.4 Hemi is about as real as the Z28. Ford just put a real engine in the mustang after how many years, dodge has had the same engines since '08 in the Chally and now in it's 2nd year the Camaro has to really change to stay competitive?
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:57 PM   #44
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I think by now we all agree here...

In the 90s and 2000s horsepower was the big deal, but now we've all gone back to our roots because we know what makes our passion different everyone else's...that magical torque number...and by now we all want GM to put a high torque motor in the Camaro regaurdless of the horsepower, luckily they monitor this site and even a few members work for GM so most likely they'll hear and come calling, then the Mustang will have to catch up again >=} hahaha

Personally im looking forward to Mopar pulling something out of nowhere, id LOVE for Mopar to jump back on board in good ole' Mopar style by suddenly dropping this new motor for the Challenger that is lower horsepower, maybe like 320 or so but something rediculous like 500 torque hahaha, i would love that so much, i want Mopar back in this thing! im tired of just Camaro, Mustang, Camaro, Mustang, Camaro, Mustang...
If Mopar were to put out a new 7.0L in a Challenger with 475 HP and 625 TQ...it would win.

Period, it would win performance wars and eat GT500's for breakfast.
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:58 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by fielderLS3 View Post
Yes. Mosts tests/reviews show the new Mustang is faster 0-60, and either even or marginally faster in the 1/4.

If the 5.0 is a high-winding engine, so is the LS3. The 5.0's redline just 150 RPM higher than the LS3, and it makes its peak torque at a LOWER RPM than the LS3.

yes... but engine to engine all the numbers are lower for the 5.0 than the LS3.... I'm not talking about which car is faster

Put an LS3 in the new mustang and it's be a rocket! haha not that it isn't already
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:01 PM   #46
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<snip

I think you're misunderstanding though, I"m not saying DON"T put this engine in the Camaro. I'm saying put it in the Camaro that is intended for HP numbers which is the Z28... A road racer. Keep the high TQ high displacement motor in the SS, because a muscle car should be about trying to pull the front wheels off the ground.

snip>
Couldn't agree with you more. If they want to keep the history intact, the Z28 should be the lightweight road racer, and the SS the drag car.

I don't know many details on the upcoming Boss Mustang, but if they do it right they'll keep it NA, raise the rev limit, and keep it light. I just hope they don't add FI, the GT500 already has that covered.
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:02 PM   #47
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I think by now we all agree here...

In the 90s and 2000s horsepower was the big deal, but now we've all gone back to our roots because we know what makes our passion different everyone else's...that magical torque number...and by now we all want GM to put a high torque motor in the Camaro regaurdless of the horsepower, luckily they monitor this site and even a few members work for GM so most likely they'll hear and come calling, then the Mustang will have to catch up again >=} hahaha

Personally im looking forward to Mopar pulling something out of nowhere, id LOVE for Mopar to jump back on board in good ole' Mopar style by suddenly dropping this new motor for the Challenger that is lower horsepower, maybe like 320 or so but something rediculous like 500 torque hahaha, i would love that so much, i want Mopar back in this thing! im tired of just Camaro, Mustang, Camaro, Mustang, Camaro, Mustang...

I have always been of the school of thought when building my engines that I like to build for TQ, and the HP will be there. With materials these days you can get a high cu. in. engine to spin pretty fast which ultimately results in high peak HP as well so really you can have the best of both worlds.
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:04 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by ViperTomcat View Post
If Mopar were to put out a new 7.0L in a Challenger with 475 HP and 625 TQ...it would win.

Period, it would win performance wars and eat GT500's for breakfast.

Well realisticly ANY of the three with a motor putting those numbers would win the war for that year but thats not even speculation thats just wishful thinking haha, i really wanna see Mopar get amped up in this thing again, im a GM supporter but i love Mopar too, they're kind of my happy void between GM and Ford haha, and then the universe just falls off into a black hole after those three...nothing else exists XD
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:20 PM   #49
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Ohhh, i cant believe i forgot to mention this! haha, im a huge supporter of E85 so id LOVE to see an E85 engine in both the Camaro and Corvette, E85 is way cleaner, home grown, despite rumors and trash talk does NOT effect the food supply at all, it has a higher octane rating and such is a better performance fuel, AND its cheaper than gasoline! Its all around perfect. Yesterday i was driving around Indiana and saw gas for $2.71 and E85 for $2.08, a Corvette with an E85 motor would be an amazing accomplishment and would go a long way to return the Corvette to its All American Icon status, all the while smashing the stupid ideas of putting FI V6s in our top of the line sport/muscle cars, and that might be one big step towards shifting the whole world's fuel supplies back in our favor, i love the idea of E85 muscle cars, and what better car to take the first step and get everyone else on board than the legendary Corvette?

I love GM more and more every day...
xD
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:28 PM   #50
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I like that idea too, but I heard somewhere that you don't get as good of mileage with it. Doesn't have the same energy content as gasoline. so the cost would probably end up being a wash or mabye slightly more because you'd fill up more often. I can't prove that, and i've never driven an E85 vehicle. but that's just what I've heard.

But I've heard you can get more power out of it! and I like that!
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