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Old 02-07-2014, 11:26 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by DarkneSS View Post
Do you realize that CAFE regulations mainly impact the bulk of what a car company sells? Hence why GM was forced to come out with cars like the Cruze and still sell thousands of 3800 pound 10 MPG V8 monsters. Cafe is calculated based off the total average of what a company sells.
So your argument against mine about size based off Cafe is moot. I'll reiterate, the Camaro cannot be a small 2 seater sports car for the reasons I previously listed.

CAFE standards are going to affect engines as well as MPG. MPG is a function of aerodynamic efficiency as well as vehicle weight. Smaller, lighter, more aerodynamic shapes are going to be necessary to assist in meeting those requirements. I don't think that's a moot point at all.

"I'm quite aware of current "trends" and I've been deliberately staying away from most of them. I'm not designing a narcissist-mobile. Considering what some of these "old designs" go for in auctions nowadays I don't see being influenced by past designs as a bad thing. "

That is fine but then you should expect the vast majority of people to dislike your design to be a future Camaro design. Had you just said "Here is my rendering for a potential future GM sports car", you would get a somewhat better reaction. The fact is that it just doesn't work as a Camaro. If you're going to call it a Camaro then it needs to at least have the basics which it does not.

The "basics" as you put it may change. It may not work as a Camaro for you, but for others it does. You can't please everybody no matter what. Even with the 5th gen there are people who bought a Mustang instead.

"The 5th gen is so successful because they absolutely nailed the essence of the look and feel of a late 1960's Camaro."
Yes but it doesn't look old like a 67 it looks like a 2010 catch my drift?

No, it looks like an updated version of a 1969. If you can immediately identify the "old model" it's inspired by, then it's a "retro" design. It just happens to be so well done, and that model year was so successful, that this modern rendition was successful too.

"With all these experiments I'm doing things that I personally would like; not necessarily trendy or what everyone else might like."

Then you really need to not get upset when people bash your design. Its a casual internet forum, you aren't always going to get back essays on what your design is. Fact is people will look at the images, not read anything, then post their opinion. If you can't deal with that, and these are as you said for you personally, why even post them?
I'm not upset if people bash the design. I don't expect or require everyone to like it; I've never said that. I'm not asking for essays, just a quick line or two. Make your post useful. If you're going to make the effort to post at all, especially to search for an image you think one of my versions looks like, then make the effort to be constructive.

I post these because there ARE people who are positive, constructive, and enjoy participating. And I also began after the firestorm of bashing that exploded after the 2014 refresh was revealed. I decided to try and come up with something that GM could use rather than just a bunch of negativity. So I've been leading a creative effort to encourage people to start thinking and posting constructively. Just look at your post. Isn't it more interesting and potentially useful to everyone to discuss design intelligently rather than just dismiss something? That's all I've ever asked from the very beginning of the first thread; if you want to participate great, just be positive and constructive.
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Old 02-07-2014, 11:38 AM   #52
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Sorry man. All I said was it looked like a '95 NSX and supplied a picture. I never degraded your drawings or said they looked like big, throbbing donkey C*CK. If you're going to take the time to create 637 drawings amongst 47 different threads (like you have), learn to accept criticism and others' opinions. Again, take notice I NEVER criticized your drawing. I only compared it. Keep going with them. It's interesting and you enjoy making them.
When you post something like this:

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It's kind of hard to take it as anything else but a put down. The phrase "end of discussion" implies that that's it; don't even bother continuing. If you have indeed read through the threads I've created which I believe are only 4 or 5, not 47, then you also should know that I "accept criticism and others' opinions" from pretty much every single image I post. It goes with the territory. If you had said "To me it looks exactly like a '95 NSX but it's interesting and keep going" you can see how that would have completely changed the way it would come across to someone reading it.

Thank you for thinking and responding this time; it makes for a MUCH better feedback post.
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Old 02-07-2014, 02:09 PM   #53
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Old 02-07-2014, 06:39 PM   #54
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I think I understand what you're saying. You want that angled piece at the bottom removed and the C pillar to just go all the way down to the fender?



Yea and then the top glass follow the flow of the roof line. It's your design you can do whatever you want too tho lol.
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Old 02-08-2014, 02:56 PM   #55
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Personally I like the c-pillar the way it is Doc. It has the right look for the rear upper fender and flows well with the back deck into the spoiler.
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:26 PM   #56
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I want to use this car in a Grand Theft Auto game.... press triangle and hop in....
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Old 02-09-2014, 10:35 AM   #57
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Doc, I love your stuff, even if its not what I would have done if I had the same 3D skills as you.

The problem is, people look at the big picture, and say it looks like a certain car. They are right, and wrong.

Look back in history guys!!! For every 5 year span, 95% of the cars have almost 80-90% of looks in common between them. Sports cars, sedans, trucks, etc all share a ton of their design cues with eachother regardless of the manufacturer, because they all follow the same trends.

So yes, at first glance you say that looks like a 3000gt, but people also look back now and say the 4th gen camaro looks like a chrysler sebring. Say that in 2012, and ill agree with you. Say it 1998, and you would have been a lunatic!

Cause at the time, the little features are what separate the cars. People will say the 2010 mustangs and camaros look alike in the future, but we will say, "no the wheels are bigger, the hips are wider, the camaro has Halos on the headlights, look at the gills!"

So people dont see the roof/window/quarterpanel lines, front fascia, etc that are all diff from the 3000gt, they just see the big picture. The truth is, to design a realistic car, you can barely change anything big, or it becomes another concept car that never gets made, you have to keep with the trends of the body style and change the small things.

I understand you are going for a realistic approach to a car that can actually be sold in the US, it seems a lot of others dont.

Keep it up!

/end of rant.
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Old 02-09-2014, 11:57 AM   #58
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Doc, I love your stuff, even if its not what I would have done if I had the same 3D skills as you.

The problem is, people look at the big picture, and say it looks like a certain car. They are right, and wrong.

Look back in history guys!!! For every 5 year span, 95% of the cars have almost 80-90% of looks in common between them. Sports cars, sedans, trucks, etc all share a ton of their design cues with eachother regardless of the manufacturer, because they all follow the same trends.

So yes, at first glance you say that looks like a 3000gt, but people also look back now and say the 4th gen camaro looks like a chrysler sebring. Say that in 2012, and ill agree with you. Say it 1998, and you would have been a lunatic!

Cause at the time, the little features are what separate the cars. People will say the 2010 mustangs and camaros look alike in the future, but we will say, "no the wheels are bigger, the hips are wider, the camaro has Halos on the headlights, look at the gills!"

So people dont see the roof/window/quarterpanel lines, front fascia, etc that are all diff from the 3000gt, they just see the big picture. The truth is, to design a realistic car, you can barely change anything big, or it becomes another concept car that never gets made, you have to keep with the trends of the body style and change the small things.

I understand you are going for a realistic approach to a car that can actually be sold in the US, it seems a lot of others dont.

Keep it up!

/end of rant.
Thank you sir!

While working on a major remodel this shape appeared before my eyes. Not sure if it necessarily works as a Camaro, but it's interesting! I've saved it as a separate file just in case it has potential.

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Old 02-09-2014, 12:02 PM   #59
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Just some thoughts.

It looks like you badly want the Camaro to be a Corvette. No room for much if any rear seat in what you have there. Not that the Camaro has much of a rear seat today, but there is some and there is some headroom. I remember the old Geo Storm that I had. I only had head room if the rear hatch was open.

Get rid of the touch pad for door unlatching. It's expensive and they frankly suck. I worked on it on the XLR and C6. The back up mechanical system required isn't worth it. Plus it's a Corvette/Cadillac design element. Put a door handle on it and you'll be better off.

Your front door cut line probably won't swing unless you put a goose neck hinge on it. Wouldn't recommend that, but it's been done.

Also the front fender feature is very close to the wheel opening. It might not be formable in steel or aluminum. Plastic has drawbacks (refer to earlier Camaros).

You likely don't have enough front fender to clear normal wheel articulations. This would restrict tire travel and hurt ride a lot.

Your current b-pillar configuration will have a tough time passing current MVSS 216. That is why the current Camaro has a massive b-pillar.

You are also carrying over one of the things I like least in the Camaro and that is the big plane rear quarter panel. You have a nice feature through the front fender and it just dies in the door.

The effort is certainly nice, but you are going away from the Pony car formula and making the car just another sports car.

I like the overall side view profile very much, it's just too sports car for me to like it as a Camaro.

Like I've said, takes courage to put stuff out there like you are doing. Keep going and don't be discouraged. But hopefully you are putting out there to foster discussion not just have a bunch of us line up to say how awesome it is. You have to remember that in most clinics not everyone likes even the greatest designs. And if you talk to the folks in the Design Studio, they would like to just keep going and refine the design forever. But at some point you have to go into production so they have to stop. In all my experience the designers have never said, "that's it. It's perfect. I'm done!".
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Old 02-09-2014, 12:33 PM   #60
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Just some thoughts.

It looks like you badly want the Camaro to be a Corvette. No room for much if any rear seat in what you have there. Not that the Camaro has much of a rear seat today, but there is some and there is some headroom. I remember the old Geo Storm that I had. I only had head room if the rear hatch was open.

Get rid of the touch pad for door unlatching. It's expensive and they frankly suck. I worked on it on the XLR and C6. The back up mechanical system required isn't worth it. Plus it's a Corvette/Cadillac design element. Put a door handle on it and you'll be better off.

Your front door cut line probably won't swing unless you put a goose neck hinge on it. Wouldn't recommend that, but it's been done.

Also the front fender feature is very close to the wheel opening. It might not be formable in steel or aluminum. Plastic has drawbacks (refer to earlier Camaros).

You likely don't have enough front fender to clear normal wheel articulations. This would restrict tire travel and hurt ride a lot.

Your current b-pillar configuration will have a tough time passing current MVSS 216. That is why the current Camaro has a massive b-pillar.

You are also carrying over one of the things I like least in the Camaro and that is the big plane rear quarter panel. You have a nice feature through the front fender and it just dies in the door.

The effort is certainly nice, but you are going away from the Pony car formula and making the car just another sports car.

I like the overall side view profile very much, it's just too sports car for me to like it as a Camaro.

Like I've said, takes courage to put stuff out there like you are doing. Keep going and don't be discouraged. But hopefully you are putting out there to foster discussion not just have a bunch of us line up to say how awesome it is. You have to remember that in most clinics not everyone likes even the greatest designs. And if you talk to the folks in the Design Studio, they would like to just keep going and refine the design forever. But at some point you have to go into production so they have to stop. In all my experience the designers have never said, "that's it. It's perfect. I'm done!".
Now this is EXACTLY the kind of information/post/feedback I need!!! THANK YOU! I've actually taken a screenshot of that and I'll use that info to guide future revisions.

It's not that I want the Camaro to become a Corvette, it's just that the new Stingray has clearly struck a chord with the customer base and I've been more or less trying to move in that direction. And I am in fact putting these versions "out there" to not only foster discussion, but provide a means for Camaro fans to put in their suggestions (which some are doing!) to hopefully get a better idea of what the community would like to see.

The idea of going away from a pony car and towards a sports car is one I've mulled over quite a bit. From everything I see on the forum it seems a lot of customers focus on the performance which to me, indicates a desire for more of a sports car. With the new Z/28 I wonder...could the Camaro evolve into more of a sports car? I don't know but I would definitely be interested to find out what the fan base thinks of that. And for some reason I'm finding it much easier to design sports car concepts than a pony car concept.

I laughed when I read your comment about the folks in the Design Studio. I can easily imagine that kind of mentality where you never stop seeing things you want to change lol! I have to constantly stop myself from going back to versions I know would never be used, and changing things anyways because I saw something I'd like to do differently now.

After the crapstorm reaction to the back of the 2014 refresh, I wanted to start a positive feedback process instead of just condemn/complain. I really hope these threads provide a safe venue for the fan base to put in their feedback so the guys in Design can get their finger on the pulse of what fans want without having to risk their own designs in here or wasting their time responding to useless criticism. And who knows...I may just happen to stumble upon a look that actually works. Your feedback is going to be immensely valuable in helping me shape the next revision.

Thank you very much!
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Old 02-09-2014, 01:58 PM   #61
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Cool stuff!

The Corvette in my opinion should always be forward in its design. That's the way it started out just look at the drastic changes between the C1, C2 and the C3.
The Camaro on the other hand should move more in an evolutionary way. With the 5Gen they nailed it! They need to take it slowly towards the 6Gen and beyond while considering any across the board necessary vehicle changes.
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Old 02-09-2014, 10:59 PM   #62
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Your front end shape in post #58 does hold some interest. While it's just an animated looking rough draft for you, it's starting to develop a little attitude, which is what made the 5th gen front work.

Start playing with some projector, signal & fog lights in a similar headlight shape & this may turn into something pretty cool for 2020.

One detail that has definitely changed in the last approx 10 years is all these new projector & led light designs. These new technologies are starting to have a mind of their own. Just went to the Jacksonville new auto show today, saw quite a few new lighting designs. Saw some headlights that appeared to be all led.
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Old 02-12-2014, 03:11 AM   #63
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Give the car more ass and a angry grille
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Old 02-12-2014, 04:23 AM   #64
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* * * Sometime in the future * * *

NEWS FLASH - Today Ford proudly debuted their new “Boss of the Road” Boss Mustang. In response, GM opened up a can of Boss Remover™ and unveiled the new Camaro Stealth Annihilator. The Camaro SA has the latest technologies that take it beyond where any muscle car has gone before.

Their new “Snake Wipe” technology has proven effective at removing Cobras, Vipers and other foreign obstacles obstructing their pathway on the track. Smaller, lighter, faster, more fuel efficient than ever before, the new Camaro SA will be sneaking into dealer’s showrooms soon!

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This one has taken awhile. When I first sketched it on paper it looked fairly simple and I thought "this should be pretty easy". Boy was I wrong. I really struggled with the shape to get the proportions to look right. It's still missing a few things; no door handle, inside wheel wells, rear diffuser. I'm also planning on doing something with the exhaust pipes besides what's there.

Overall, especially from the front, it has that stealth look I was going for. I can imagine if someone looked in their rear view mirror and saw this coming up behind them their instinct would be to "move over" hehe. The lighting at night would be cool looking too. The headlights and LED running lights would be much brighter than I was able to produce. Having the rear side marker lights at the top edge of the fender would give a black car that 'UFO hovering in the air' look at night if you were following it from behind.

Although it looks ok in lighter colors, especially metallics like silver and gray, it definitely looks best in the darker colors.
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Old 02-12-2014, 01:18 PM   #65
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Here's a couple of better snapshots with the lighting on.

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Old 02-12-2014, 01:24 PM   #66
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Its a hell of a lot better than what I could do

but it looks to much like a Corvette or I even see Acura NSX
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Old 02-12-2014, 01:31 PM   #67
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Its a hell of a lot better than what I could do

but it looks to much like a Corvette or I even see Acura NSX
You think this latest one looks like a Corvette or Acura NSX??? Wow, I don't see them as being anywhere close to this look.
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Old 02-12-2014, 04:00 PM   #68
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Its a hell of a lot better than what I could do

but it looks to much like a Corvette or I even see Acura NSX
I thought the same exact thing to a "T"! A Corvette/NSX hybrid. The front is long like a Corvette and then the cabin sits pretty much in the center of the chassis, giving the NSXish look. I would like to see the cabin moved back towards the trunk more, but then it would look even more like a Corvette. I don't have any answers here.
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Old 02-12-2014, 06:25 PM   #69
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The last one reminds me of the spy hunter vehicle.
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Old 02-12-2014, 06:52 PM   #70
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I thought the same exact thing to a "T"! A Corvette/NSX hybrid. The front is long like a Corvette and then the cabin sits pretty much in the center of the chassis, giving the NSXish look. I would like to see the cabin moved back towards the trunk more, but then it would look even more like a Corvette. I don't have any answers here.
If a "long front" is what reminds you of a Corvette, then an even longer one would as you say be even more like a Corvette. Not sure why that's such a bad thing.

The cabin is stretched for 4 people which is why the front of the cabin is where it is. I could move the entire cabin back some but then the car starts to look like a Rolls Royce.

It's amazing how rigid the Camaro community is with styling. A long hood with a short rear deck is actually the standard formula for a muscle car. If I do that with this design then people complain it looks like a Corvette which is a muscle/sports car. I can try it just to see what it looks like but it'll be interesting to see what the reaction is.
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:11 PM   #71
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Here it is with the entire cabin moved back 3 inches. I put it in silver so it would be easier to see. Better? Worse? About the same?

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Old 02-12-2014, 07:27 PM   #72
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Think I like the cabin moved back better.
I'm liking the tail lights& rear shape, something more to the bottom (diffuser?) to clean up the tailpipe look should finish off the back nicely. Maybe round the cornors of the bumper itself just a little more. Designing sure is work, ain't it.
How bout a snorkel shaped opening in the center of the fascia to compliment the hood shape.
How bout removing the Hitler Mustache?? JUST KIDDING. With all the other stupid comments I thought it was my turn to say something stupid.
I do think it's starting to look pretty damn good now , as to what could be a future Camaro. Taking on a more muscular flowing look. The fascia still needs work, Perhaps another step in the shape of the lower fascia & maybe a slim lower grille only, no upper grille.

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Old 02-12-2014, 07:43 PM   #73
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I like that last side profile MUCH better!
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:56 PM   #74
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The first attempt looks like a testarossa from '89. 2020? No way.
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Old 02-13-2014, 11:50 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by 1LEMayhem View Post
The first attempt looks like a testarossa from '89. 2020? No way.
So you REALLY think these two are just SO CLOSE in appearance that there's NO WAY anyone would want a car that has a back that reminds YOU of a car that's worth 6 times the price of a Camaro....

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What's wrong with the Camaro community? Why are they so fixated on this "Let's see what car from the past this MIGHT remind me of" game?? I don't get this.
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