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Old 01-01-2014, 10:50 PM   #26
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Sorry NO
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Old 01-02-2014, 03:16 AM   #27
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I think I'll just blithely ignore all posts that offer no constructive feedback or even answer the question "Camaro or Mustang". I'm also not going to post any images of any part of the car that still has a lot of work to do so people don't start blowing chunks and getting woozy.

I'll probably do both a Camaro and a Mustang version just for the sake of interest. However at the moment I'm working on it as a Camaro. I've slightly re-proportioned the cabin towards the back which was not an easy task to do with this design. I'm also not entirely opposed to a change in engine location if the Camaro does in fact go mid-engine. People have to realize that the days of the big blocks and hulking monsters are rapidly disappearing. The laws that are being forced on us by our elected so-called representatives are going to require smaller engines in the future. This concept is 2020-forward so everyone should keep in mind what effect the laws are going to have on designs at that time. In fact, if the aristoc...I mean "elected" officials get their way in the future, we won't even be able to control our cars. We'll just sit in them while the government drives it for us.

So.... that being said, here's the latest with changes to the front mostly.

Name:  Concept 2020 Camaro Alt4a.jpg
Views: 580
Size:  60.5 KB

This front really likes Hugger Orange:

Name:  Concept 2020 Camaro Alt4b.jpg
Views: 753
Size:  64.4 KB

One of my goals with this design (as was true with my previous effort) is driver visibility. This is the reason why I chose the all-glass back. It's the best solution for visibility. It opens up the cabin and gets rid of the sitting-in-a-cave feeling I've seen people complain about. Forward and side visibility with this design is excellent too. With the new thinner, lighter, stronger glasses that are now available this should be a much better solution than it was in times past.

Although I shouldn't have to say it, apparently it's still necessary to remind everyone that this is a work-in-progress and the images I post reflect that; things can and will change. Other designers generally don't do this and I can definitely see why. Being that as it may I will restrict the images I post to those views that show mostly-finished design.

If you're going to post a comment, fine... just make it constructive. Posts that say "It looks like (whatever)" are useless; don't bother because I don't care. I like to draw upon styling ideas and elements from all kinds of vehicles going back decades because I think beautiful styling is beautiful styling, no matter when it was created. I don't think all previous styling should be abandoned just because it's been done before. If you don't like it, create your own ideas and post them in your own thread so we can see what you think is better.
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Old 01-02-2014, 04:55 AM   #28
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To me I can't answer you question by picking camaro or mustang. It doesn't in any way shape or form speak either one to me. Who knows, in 5 years it may. That will depend on where the real designers of these two lead us.
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Old 01-02-2014, 07:30 AM   #29
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The way I see it , and to my eyes what jumps to me at first glance is the breaking lines front to back
The visual rake line deeps right at the A pilar , kind of a deep point in there , then it rises as it moves to the front .
Maybe is it just stay on a strait continuos line , or it may jut waive along up and down as the oceans waives or the rolling hills that we can find all over in the natural mountains around North Cal
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Old 01-02-2014, 07:30 AM   #30
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Hey Doc,

Try flattening the hood instead of curving it downward. I believe this will add some height to the grille and raise it a bit as well. Also, try bringing the left and right sides of the tail closer together to give it that "tightened" look. I think if you do this, it will look more "muscle".

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Old 01-02-2014, 07:34 AM   #31
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I am sorry Doc, I don't have anything nice to say...nor do I have the skills to do any better!

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Old 01-02-2014, 07:36 AM   #32
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Doc,
I have lurked in your two threads for a little while now and you ask for constructive criticism...I truly agree that it was you need.
I come from a design background and can tell you that what may be constricting you a bit is drawing. For every design that I created I made at least 20 or more thumbnail sketches, from those I chose the best 3 to 5 and refined them. This had me define more of what I was looking for, by no means the finished product. After that I chose 2 or 3 that truly had the basis of what I wanted, and only then did i place it into a digital format (and normally 2d first). The first is a digital rough, blocky and unrefined. But i would then take those three and after seeing the digital roughs sided by side, decide on which one I would create. By then it had taken on a life of its own. I truly feel this may be the part of the process that is holding you back.
Every design process is done in this way; many, many steps until digital. Reason being is that you are constrained by the small box that you place the digital image in and thus less creativity comes forth. Trust me I tried.
**In another thread you mention cartoony comic book cars, I get what your saying, but that is the beginning, the ideas, the brainstorming, the refining all before it becomes digital and tangible.**
I think you are at the cusp of what you could design. Your other concept, I was not fond of only because it seemed as though it drew from multiple other cars, kind of like a Frankenstein, but with that said, it was a triumph in the aspect of learning the software, a bit about the design aspect and hopefully a way to take criticism and be humble. Remember as 1 man builds it, hundreds will try to tear it down.
With this one, I like the fact that you looked elsewhere such as the P-51 mustang for inspiration, just be careful about being too literal in "retro" translation. Also an idea is to look towards nature, for your ideas as well. Nature is the perfect designer for a reason, hence why we rely on it for so many of the designs and items we have today. I think you are on the right track to inspire yourself and others, I just think you are missing the first steps and diving right into the computer cause its the real fun part as you see it fleshed out in reality.
As for this car, I don't really see a solid Mustang or Camaro. What I do see is a lot more pieces parts from other cars again. Not that its not a great effort, it just needs that bit of charisma and personality to be one of those two cars, something found in the beginning stages of design. Also, let the comments of others enhance your ideas, not influence your direction. Some will like it, some will not, it is a rare bird when everyone loves it! I mean the gen 4 Camaro body style was originally supposed to be a corvette and the ford probe was intended to be a mustang, neither fit the bill for the original purpose....so don't get hung up on what it should be. design it and if its a Camaro then awesome, if its the DOC ConceptX, then awesome! Remember, Edison made hundreds of electric piles of junk before getting the light bulb!

@ everyone else, give the guy a break, if you can do better than do it, if not, then give CONSTRUCTIVE advice, if not that, then sit back and watch what unfolds because you are just a bystander this time.
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Old 01-02-2014, 08:42 AM   #33
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I've observed many of your drawings on here over time and see you're very passionate about design. This one; however, I just don't see any correlation to any American made pony car. To me, it's very far out of the realm of American muscle. It looks more like a combination of an exotic/1970's futuristic concept/rear engine automobile. Good luck!
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Old 01-02-2014, 09:18 AM   #34
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It looks good for a Mustang LOL
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:10 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc View Post
I think I'll just blithely ignore all posts that offer no constructive feedback or even answer the question "Camaro or Mustang". I'm also not going to post any images of any part of the car that still has a lot of work to do so people don't start blowing chunks and getting woozy.

I'll probably do both a Camaro and a Mustang version just for the sake of interest. However at the moment I'm working on it as a Camaro. I've slightly re-proportioned the cabin towards the back which was not an easy task to do with this design. I'm also not entirely opposed to a change in engine location if the Camaro does in fact go mid-engine. People have to realize that the days of the big blocks and hulking monsters are rapidly disappearing. The laws that are being forced on us by our elected so-called representatives are going to require smaller engines in the future. This concept is 2020-forward so everyone should keep in mind what effect the laws are going to have on designs at that time. In fact, if the aristoc...I mean "elected" officials get their way in the future, we won't even be able to control our cars. We'll just sit in them while the government drives it for us.

So.... that being said, here's the latest with changes to the front mostly.

Attachment 587398

This front really likes Hugger Orange:

Attachment 587399

One of my goals with this design (as was true with my previous effort) is driver visibility. This is the reason why I chose the all-glass back. It's the best solution for visibility. It opens up the cabin and gets rid of the sitting-in-a-cave feeling I've seen people complain about. Forward and side visibility with this design is excellent too. With the new thinner, lighter, stronger glasses that are now available this should be a much better solution than it was in times past.

Although I shouldn't have to say it, apparently it's still necessary to remind everyone that this is a work-in-progress and the images I post reflect that; things can and will change. Other designers generally don't do this and I can definitely see why. Being that as it may I will restrict the images I post to those views that show mostly-finished design.

If you're going to post a comment, fine... just make it constructive. Posts that say "It looks like (whatever)" are useless; don't bother because I don't care. I like to draw upon styling ideas and elements from all kinds of vehicles going back decades because I think beautiful styling is beautiful styling, no matter when it was created. I don't think all previous styling should be abandoned just because it's been done before. If you don't like it, create your own ideas and post them in your own thread so we can see what you think is better.
I agree, that would be a good improvement on visibility. Have you thought about widening the rear quarter panels a bit to help with air flow and down forces. As it sits now it will act like an air foil and tend to lift the car at speed, IMO.
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Old 01-02-2014, 12:38 PM   #36
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this are serious thread? lolz
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Old 01-02-2014, 12:40 PM   #37
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Old 01-02-2014, 01:50 PM   #38
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Wait... We will still be driving on wheels in 2020? Damnit.
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Old 01-02-2014, 01:58 PM   #39
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Thank you to all the constructive and supportive commenters! The overall tone of the posts (most of them anyways) has greatly improved and the suggestions and constructive feedback is definitely welcome.

Here's the latest; a LOT of small tweaks and adjustments pretty much all over the place. Enhancing the curves and sculpting. Right now the hood is a simple and smooth shape but I created it as a separate element so I can change it and/or have multiple versions. I'm going to modify it for those who've suggested that.

Name:  Concept 2020 Camaro Alt4a1.jpg
Views: 436
Size:  77.3 KB
Name:  Concept 2020 Camaro Alt4a2.jpg
Views: 442
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Name:  Concept 2020 Camaro Alt4a3.jpg
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I'm surprised to see over 1,000 views already in only a day! Good to see the interest, and considering that many views, it's nice to see very few disparaging remarks. This is the reason why I like this forum; by and large the members are a much classier bunch than what I see in other forums.
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Old 01-02-2014, 03:32 PM   #40
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Sorry if you don't like my opinions about your rendering but in my opinion it looks nothing like a Camaro or Mustang but is rather starting to resemble a late model C3 Corvette like say what someone from 1980 would say the future of the corvette would have been. Just my observations but the doors are to short to be coupe doors and are more the size of a 4 door sedans doors and the back window is way to bubble like and again resemble's a 1980 corvette back window. doesn't appear to have enough room for back seats which Camaro's have. the front fenders also resemble a C3 corvette's fenders. I would also try and come up with a better grill design rather that just throwing the current grill on your model. I would think that if you were going to try and design the C7 Camaro then i would look more towards a mix of the 80's and 90's Camaro for inspiration. I am in no way trying to say that i could do a better job than you and you did post on here asking people what they think and i am not trying to be mean towards you I am just letting you know what i think about the designs you posted. Please don't stop posting the pictures because if we all said we liked the first one and you stopped at that then you would never make it better and that is what i thought all this was about. keeps the updates coming
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Old 01-02-2014, 04:22 PM   #41
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1. I really like the last rendering. Clean, modern, and appears producible.

2. It will not work for a Camaro as Chevy will not put a V8 powered two seater in production unless the vehicle is a Corvette.

3. I personally would like to see something like this in production, maybe with the ATS 2.0T/Tremec 30/60 power train and with a shorter wheel base and curb weight below 2800lbs.

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Old 01-02-2014, 05:36 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc View Post
Thank you to all the constructive and supportive commenters! The overall tone of the posts (most of them anyways) has greatly improved and the suggestions and constructive feedback is definitely welcome.

Here's the latest; a LOT of small tweaks and adjustments pretty much all over the place. Enhancing the curves and sculpting. Right now the hood is a simple and smooth shape but I created it as a separate element so I can change it and/or have multiple versions. I'm going to modify it for those who've suggested that.

Attachment 587479
Attachment 587480
Attachment 587481

I'm surprised to see over 1,000 views already in only a day! Good to see the interest, and considering that many views, it's nice to see very few disparaging remarks. This is the reason why I like this forum; by and large the members are a much classier bunch than what I see in other forums.
Mean this is the best way possible, but I don't like that one. Reminds me too much of a vette. I bought my Camaro mostly due to dealer customer service, but also because of how it looks. It's modern, but still very retro. Hope this helps. I think it's awesome you have the skill to create concept cars. Keep up the hard work.
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Old 01-03-2014, 04:16 PM   #43
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I appreciate the feedback everyone!

This is an alternate version. After struggling with trying to come up with a good design for the rear of the car I realized the side styling at the back was causing me too much hassle so I revised the side styling which is reflected in these snapshots. I also took note of the observation about rear passenger room and raised the roof a full inch. I did more work on the front too.

By the way, this color is my attempt to recreate a color from the 60's. My best friend in high school had a 1967 SS350 in a beautiful champagne metallic color which I've tried to reproduce here.

Name:  2020 Concept Camaro Alt6a1.jpg
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Name:  2020 Concept Camaro Alt6a2.jpg
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Name:  2020 Concept Camaro Alt6a3.jpg
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Name:  2020 Concept Camaro Alt6a4.jpg
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On the subject of colors, I call this one Astro Red. It does a nice job of showing off the contours of the car. For those of you who are Chevy history fans, I got the idea for this from the Chevy Astro 1 concept car.

Name:  2020 Concept Camaro Alt6b1.jpg
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Name:  2020 Concept Camaro Alt6b3.jpg
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Name:  2020 Concept Camaro Alt6b4.jpg
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Certain colors really pop on this style; I call this one Raging Pumpkin.

Name:  2020 Concept Camaro Alt6c1.jpg
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Name:  2020 Concept Camaro Alt6c4.jpg
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This shape just doesn't like the dark colors unfortunately. I tried gloss black and other dark colors but the styling details tend to just disappear. However a burgundy metallic does look pretty nice.

Name:  2020 Concept Camaro Alt6d1.jpg
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Name:  2020 Concept Camaro Alt6d2.jpg
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Keep in mind this shape as it is right now is a clean, pure shape without any aero pieces attached. Adding a front and rear spoiler along with a hood bulge will give it a much more aggressive look. I'll add those elements later but at the moment I'm concentrating on getting the basic shape right so if it doesn't look "muscular" enough or the car seems a bit conservative, stay tuned for updates to the look.

Thanks again to everyone viewing and participating!
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Old 01-03-2014, 04:17 PM   #44
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(TO THE MODS: Since there isn't a category yet for concepts beyond 2016 I put this in here.)

I figure by now the 2016 Camaro is probably already designed. SOoo... just to start the new year off with a bang, here's my concept idea for 2020. However, now that I'm this far into it I realized it may actually work better as a Mustang. So I'd like to see what people think before I put anymore work into it.

Now before we get to the pictures I'll get the obvious reactions out of the way:

OMG IT LOOKS LIKE A VETTE!! A DODGE!! A FERRARI!! A MCLAREN!! A PINTO!! AN '83 BUICK!! MY TRUCK!!! Dude, WHAT were you THINKING!!???

Yes yes... I'm guilty. I deliberately designed it to look just like... a car...


Soooooo..... what do you guys (or gals) think? Does this style work as a Camaro or does it work better as a Mustang?

Camaro:
Attachment 587125
Attachment 587126

Mustang:
Attachment 587128
Attachment 587127

Here's the original concept side view drawing I started with:
Attachment 587129

With my previous 2016 concept I spent most of my time on the front and back and struggled with the side. This time I put most of my effort into the side and profile views. I took all the comments made in that previous concept thread and put them to use; more curves, more side detail, less square and boxy, etc. I also noticed a LOT of people really like the retro/heritage look so for this concept (at the moment anyways) I went with clearly identifiable styling elements for the front and back. I may change that up as I spend more time with it. This is a pure design with a fairly sophisticated styling on the sides. I didn't want anything frivolous but at the same time I didn't want it too plain.

This design concept seems to work better with bright colors I've noticed. The dark colors don't do so well on this shape.

Attachment 587130
Attachment 587131
Attachment 587132
Attachment 587135
Attachment 587133
Attachment 587134

The Camaro front is pure retro/heritage but that too may change:

Attachment 587136

I actually haven't put a lot of time into the front or back yet and there's detail and finishing work that needs to be done all over the place. This whole thing went from flat 2d drawing to what you see now in about 4 days; compare that to the 2 months it took me to get the 2016 concept together! Nothing like practice and knowing what you're doing!!

This design isn't "spacey" or gimmicky; it's intended to be a pure styling concept that's elegant, beautiful, classy and clean. If the consensus is this doesn't work as a Camaro, I'll make it a Mustang. I already have an idea for the front. If the majority like this as a Camaro, then too bad for the Ford crowd.

So whatchyall think?

Barracuda.
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Old 01-03-2014, 06:58 PM   #45
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Barracuda.
Hey , Fenderaddict2 see if you can foresee the sell numbers for the models above and the trends , it also be good if you can show us. YTD ,versus FORD & dog doge for that model year
Thanks in advance , way in advance :-(
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Old 01-03-2014, 08:52 PM   #46
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I am really digging the front. Can you try the turn signals with more of a wedge shape?

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Old 01-04-2014, 01:33 AM   #47
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I like the idea but I'm not sure it works as either a Mustang or a Camaro. To me it looks more like it's in the same class as a Miata - a small, nimble car. To me there's something about the greenhouse that just looks.... bubbley (?) not sure how to describe it, but it's a design that doesn't denote the aggressive musculature you usually see in a pony car or muscle car, more like just a fun little sports car.
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Old 01-04-2014, 11:05 AM   #48
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Sorry Doc - I know you have a lot of time in this but I think this is a classic lesson on why it takes more than knowledge of how to make a 3D model to design a car that the public would want to buy. The proportions all over the car are just ... off.

In this picture it looks decent - it kind of reminds me of a C4 Corvette.


But then this picture everything just looks wrong? It hits me as someone took a picture of a car and use the "pinch" and "squeeze" in photoshop to screw up the proportions.


The front bumper proportions are just all wrong. The side scallop looks too much like a Dodge Charger but it's also awkwardly positioned IMO. Everything about the rear ... no me gusta. Honestly about the only thing that I really like is the overall size and the greenhouse design.
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Old 01-04-2014, 11:05 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl View Post
I am really digging the front. Can you try the turn signals with more of a wedge shape?

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Thank you! Wedge in which way? Sharper outer corners or taller inner corners? Do you want the whole thing thicker or thinner?

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Originally Posted by OperativeXIV View Post
I like the idea but I'm not sure it works as either a Mustang or a Camaro. To me it looks more like it's in the same class as a Miata - a small, nimble car. To me there's something about the greenhouse that just looks.... bubbley (?) not sure how to describe it, but it's a design that doesn't denote the aggressive musculature you usually see in a pony car or muscle car, more like just a fun little sports car.
Well it's actually the same wheelbase as the current Camaro; 112 inches. Front track is 60" rear track is 61". One of the design goals was to improve driver visibility which is why it's open and airy looking. Considering that CAFE requirements may force GM to put a 4 cylinder engine in the Camaro by that time, would a base model car that's a "fun little sports car" be all that bad? Maybe it's not the asphalt-ripping V8 monster we all know and love today but a lighter, more nimble and a blast to drive car is not exactly a disaster. I think a car like that would sell very well. This is the base model. Keep in mind I'm going to add some aero pieces which will definitely give it a more aggressive look, but again we have to accept that things are going to change. I'm designing with that reality in mind; trying to create a shape that's clean, efficient and looks fast. I don't want to wind up with a government regulation car that looks like a government regulation car; the thing that happened to cars in the 70's when all kinds of new regulations hit the auto makers.

For everyone in general: GM actually views these threads so I think this is a great opportunity for us to give them some useful ideas and feedback to help them shape the future of the Camaro. Rather than just say we don't like something, let's try and give them ideas of what we DO like so we can give them something positive to work with.
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Old 01-04-2014, 11:11 AM   #50
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Sorry Doc - I know you have a lot of time in this but I think this is a classic lesson on why it takes more than knowledge of how to make a 3D model to design a car that the public would want to buy. The proportions all over the car are just ... off.
Off in what way? I'm working to lean things down to a minimalist type level. People want weight reduction on the Camaro, well that's going to mean putting the body style on a diet. What would you like to see?
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