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Old 12-01-2013, 02:34 PM   #35
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Are you absolutely sure about that? I never said it was easy; it wasn't easy for me but I was only modifying my one car. It would be "easier" to some degree for GM because they can actually make the technology they need; I had to wait and research like crazy to put together what I did. But based on my actual experience I can say it would be worth GM's time and money to do more research in this area. Yes it will be expensive initially, but what isn't in order to meet cafe standards?? The problem with pouring millions into certifying one engine is it's only good for that one engine; they have to do it for every new or modified engine if I understand it correctly. The tech they would develop for reducing unsprung I believe would actually be cheaper in the long run as it can be used across many vehicle product lines and can be carried over year to year. And there wouldn't be expensive certification tests involved.

I don't know how they go about getting an epa certified rating but I firmly believe it would be worthwhile to create one "mission modified" test car that's only had a reduction in unsprung to see what the actual results are. My car is modified for the track with appropriate cam and everything and I STILL get pretty decent gas mileage; especially on the freeway. If I was just modifying for street/daily driver I have no doubt I could get better mpg out of a stock SS without engine mods and it would be a noticeable improvement in performance. And that's just me modding an already manufactured car. If I had the backing and resources of GM behind me I'm absolutely positive I could improve the performance and mpg WITHOUT modifying the already-certified engine.

It would be an investment on GM's part but a worthwhile one that would pay off for years and years.
You are correct that the responsiveness of a car with less rotating unsprung mass will be better. The rotational moment of inertia of a larger and/or heavier wheel tire combination will take more to spin. So from a real world standpoint you would be absolutely correct.

If you look at the Cruze ECO, you will see that it comes with what I believe are lower weight aluminum wheels. But this is only a part of the equation.

So I am agreeing that you are correct in your assumption. Reducing the rotational inertia of the wheel/tire/rotor will make a difference. Just not as big as you are suggesting.

All I am suggesting is that if it were simply a matter of reducing rotational mass you would see a much different set of wheels and tires on cars today.

GM and every other OEM would pay dearly for the 2 to 3 MPG you are suggesting is possible and if all it took was 12 or 13" aluminum wheels...............you'd see every car come standard with those. You wouldn't see some base models coming with steel wheels and hubcaps either.

Just look at the Camaro. Do you think GM would love to have the same or higher EPA highway number as the Mustang???? YES in as big a font as I can come up with. I know the effort that went into getting 30. And if all they had to do was put the aluminum wheels on as standard to get even 1 MPG do you think they would have done that? Again, YES in as big a font as the last yes. I believe the aluminum wheels save something in the neighborhood of 30 to 50 pounds, half of your suggestion.

So I am pretty sure that rotating unsprung mass won't get the MPG you are thinking. For highway numbers it truly is Aero, Tire Friction and Powertrain. Mass of the vehicle highly impacts the tire friction. For City, it's less Aero and more Mass. Much more to the art and science of it and there is a bunch that can impact "real world" FE as well compared to the EPA cycles.
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Old 12-01-2013, 02:46 PM   #36
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Oh they won't - believe me, just wait...
Believe you eh??

You have some sort of connections??
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Old 12-01-2013, 02:49 PM   #37
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I hope GM doesn't push the Camaro to meet European style and engine sizes. They need to keep the Camaro an American car. That's the only concern I have for the Camaro future.
I just hope they decide to keep giving the car it own style and attitude. Don't just make it look like part of the fleet and feel like they have to give it the current corporate grille or something like that.

Corporate styles come and go, and they are trendy and eventually they fade away.

The 5th gen and its styling will never fade away because there is nothing else out there like it. That again is a key they need to nail when designing the new beast.

Ford decided to make the next Mustang resemble some of the other cars in the line up. That's fine I guess....not saying that automatically makes the car look bad. It just doesn't make it unique.
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Old 12-01-2013, 07:43 PM   #38
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Mules will have the production intent architecture underneath. That means underbody, chassis and powertrain must be correct. You are correct, they've put some pretty strange stuff on top of those architectures i.e. recent photos of Chevy Caprice on top of what is rumored at least to be Omega.

Keep in mind, if the NG Camaro doesn't have a 4 cylinder then you can kiss outselling the Mustang goodbye. This suggests that Ford is 1) going global as 2.0 is a main tax threshold in most other countries 2) going after the total coupe market as I've suggested Chevy should do, meaning taking sales not just from Camaro, but also Nissan and Honda and 3) has a CAFE miracle up their sleeve. Not sure how you get to where the Camaro has to be for CAFE without a 4 cylinder. And please don't suggest that GM can get 6 MPG out of the current 3.6L. It's just not there. Look at the same 3.6L in the ATS. Rated at 28 in a much lighter car, 2 less than the Camaro.

I'm very skeptical GM would even want to pass up on a 4 cylinder solution unless they want to watch Mustang sales soar and not have anything to compete with.
What would you say to LGX + eAssist in a Camaro? That might help bump the V6 FE up a few notches (even if it pisses off the purists).

Going off ATS specs, I really don't see a way to avoid using the LTG as a base engine to beat Mustang FE-wise.

Just anecdotally, the rumored ATS powertrain MCE includes a 2.0T + eAssist + 8 speed automatic and a 2.0T manual + Start/Stop.
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Old 12-01-2013, 08:06 PM   #39
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Removing 200 pounds of static weight would be noticeable by most folks on a track. Every day, it's doubtful. I actually enjoy the feel of our S4 compared to Mrs. Number 3's ATS and some of that is simply the rigidity and solid feeling of the Audi compared to the Cadillac. And the Audi weighs in about 300 pounds or so heavier.
You shouldn't be surprised that you prefer the "solid feel" of Audi's highest performance (US) 4 series sport sedan to a middle-of-the-pack commuter ATS that costs significantly less.

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Look at the same 3.6L in the ATS. Rated at 28 in a much lighter car, 2 less than the Camaro.
The ATS is rated higher city/highway/combined than the Camaro, while offering significantly more passenger and cargo volume.
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Old 12-01-2013, 09:39 PM   #40
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You are correct that the responsiveness of a car with less rotating unsprung mass will be better. The rotational moment of inertia of a larger and/or heavier wheel tire combination will take more to spin. So from a real world standpoint you would be absolutely correct.

If you look at the Cruze ECO, you will see that it comes with what I believe are lower weight aluminum wheels. But this is only a part of the equation.

So I am agreeing that you are correct in your assumption. Reducing the rotational inertia of the wheel/tire/rotor will make a difference. Just not as big as you are suggesting.

All I am suggesting is that if it were simply a matter of reducing rotational mass you would see a much different set of wheels and tires on cars today.

GM and every other OEM would pay dearly for the 2 to 3 MPG you are suggesting is possible and if all it took was 12 or 13" aluminum wheels...............you'd see every car come standard with those. You wouldn't see some base models coming with steel wheels and hubcaps either.

Just look at the Camaro. Do you think GM would love to have the same or higher EPA highway number as the Mustang???? YES in as big a font as I can come up with. I know the effort that went into getting 30. And if all they had to do was put the aluminum wheels on as standard to get even 1 MPG do you think they would have done that? Again, YES in as big a font as the last yes. I believe the aluminum wheels save something in the neighborhood of 30 to 50 pounds, half of your suggestion.

So I am pretty sure that rotating unsprung mass won't get the MPG you are thinking. For highway numbers it truly is Aero, Tire Friction and Powertrain. Mass of the vehicle highly impacts the tire friction. For City, it's less Aero and more Mass. Much more to the art and science of it and there is a bunch that can impact "real world" FE as well compared to the EPA cycles.
If you read my posts in detail and took the time to examine my project thread you should be able to see I'm not saying just replacing the wheels is the magic bullet to gaining 2-3 mpg. There is no magic bullet. It's a combination of several things; wheels and tires being part of that equation.

I don't know how cars are EPA certified; are they tested in a lab by a machine or out on the road with real drivers? I know that people push the gas pedal as far as they feel is necessary to get the feeling they're "moving" at a rate they feel is acceptable. That "feeling" depends on acceleration response and how quickly they reach that "feeling". The farther they push the gas pedal to get going, the worse the gas mileage. If you take the same driver and put them in a car with more "pep" so that they get to that "feeling" quicker and only have to push the gas pedal half as far or even less, then they are using less gas to get going and will get better mileage as a result. How far they push the gas pedal depends on their perception of how the car is responding to their throttle input. If they feel the car is sluggish, they're pushing the pedal down pretty far to get it going. If it feels like they barely push it at all (like mine; I can push the pedal no more than an inch at the most and in a couple of seconds I'm at the speed limit on the street) then they're using less fuel; especially for around-town stop-and-go driving. Freeway driving is very different; there it's rolling and wind resistance you have to overcome more than anything else. Unsprung reduction would have little effect on that unless the freeway traffic is heavy and you're having to speed up and slow down a lot.

It would have to be a total approach; drivetrain from the flywheel through the clutch/trans, driveshaft, differential and axles, as well as unsprung rotational in the wheels, including using low-rolling-resistance tires and lighter brake rotors. Any of that mass you can reduce means less power is required to get moving which means less gas is used. Just changing the wheels isn't enough; you need the total package, but that's something GM can certainly do.

The reason why manufacturers haven't so far I'm guessing is because they're also focused on making the parts as cheaply as possible, so the idea of putting what they would probably perceive as racing grade engineered parts in a mass-manufactured street vehicle would seem cost prohibitive and be nixed by the bean counters.

Times have changed though. With new materials and manufacturing techniques what was once highly custom engineered is now reasonably possible with computerized manufacturing. And again, they need to recalibrate their focus on targeting to the performance perception of the customer. When a customer does a test drive it's not the numbers that impresses them, it's how the car makes them feel when they drive it. Aim for that. A car could literally have less horsepower than a competitor's car, yet feel better when driving because of how it responds to the driver. Aim for the perception because to the customer, perception is reality.
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Old 12-02-2013, 12:17 AM   #41
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The ATS is rated higher city/highway/combined than the Camaro, while offering significantly more passenger and cargo volume.
The LFX?
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Old 12-02-2013, 09:17 AM   #42
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The LFX?
According to fueleconomy.gov

http://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?a...VWTYoWiw.gmail

2014 Cadillac ATS: 18/22/28
2014 Chevrolet Camaro: 18/21/27

I see Chevrolet advertises the 2LS at 30hwy, so maybe that's the difference.
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Old 12-02-2013, 10:53 AM   #43
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Come on any weight reduction affects fuel economy. GM spent millions on weight reduction programs, as have everyone else. Reducing weight via unsprung components is much more interesting to me in terms of its affect on the vehicle dynamics.

Does the Camaro need a 2-3 mpg increase? No. GM doesn't sell enough of them to affect CAFE ratings significantly. Does the Camaro need reasonable fuel economy? Yes. I mean 16-17 ish for the V8 city, around 20 combined. The Camaro won't be sold in numbers nor should it - its a niche product with good margins if it doesn't get watered down.

I hope Chevy continues to focus on VIR and Nuremburgh for the Camaro.

Now could Chevy come out with a product like the Subaru FRS? Yeah great, I am interested, but don't split the Camaro program to do it. Too many compromises.

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Old 12-02-2013, 11:11 AM   #44
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Idk about you guys but the new 6th gen ford mustang marketing campaign sucks!
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Old 12-02-2013, 11:43 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by MEDISIN View Post
According to fueleconomy.gov

http://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?a...VWTYoWiw.gmail

2014 Cadillac ATS: 18/22/28
2014 Chevrolet Camaro: 18/21/27

I see Chevrolet advertises the 2LS at 30hwy, so maybe that's the difference.
That same site says the side by side specs:

Passenger Volume - ATS: 91 ft3 (4 door); Camaro: 93 ft3 (2 door)
Luggage Volume - ATS: 10 ft3 (4 door); Camaro: 11 ft3 (2 door)

Somehow a 2 door car has 2 cubic feet more passenger volume and 1 cubic foot more luggage volume.
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Old 12-02-2013, 12:01 PM   #46
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That same site says the side by side specs:

Passenger Volume - ATS: 91 ft3 (4 door); Camaro: 93 ft3 (2 door)
Luggage Volume - ATS: 10 ft3 (4 door); Camaro: 11 ft3 (2 door)

Somehow a 2 door car has 2 cubic feet more passenger volume and 1 cubic foot more luggage volume.
But what is available and what is useable can make a difference too. Take a rectangular box with 91 cubic ft of space inside compare it to another container that is odd shaped with the same 91 cubic ft of space inside. The box would have more useable space. The trunks are different shape as are the passenger compartments. So what may seem like the Camaro has more room using measurements, the actual usable space may be much less.
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Old 12-02-2013, 03:25 PM   #47
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But what is available and what is useable can make a difference too. Take a rectangular box with 91 cubic ft of space inside compare it to another container that is odd shaped with the same 91 cubic ft of space inside. The box would have more useable space. The trunks are different shape as are the passenger compartments. So what may seem like the Camaro has more room using measurements, the actual usable space may be much less.
No I agree - though if you've sat in an ATS you'll know the rear seat is not as usable as it may seem. It sure is easier to get in and out of having the 2 rear doors compared to the 5th gen Camaro, but it's definitely just as small as the 5th gen's rear seat. Barely any knee space and I'm only 5'5". It's actually so tight that they had to "indent" the headliner up tighter against the roof for the rear passengers so they aren't brushing their heads against the headliner. But even then, with my short 5'5" stature I was bumping my head against the "edge" of the indentation getting in and out of the car.

Without sitting in the car, I would have never known it was there and I'm not sure if I'm explaining it in a way that folks who haven't sat in the car can picture. None of the interior pictures I've ever seen show the "indentation."

Edit: You can actually see the "indentation" (how it curves up against the roof) in this picture, to the right of the side courtesy light:
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Old 12-02-2013, 05:55 PM   #48
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They are trying to sell the 14's so they won't come out with a "teaser" until '15.
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Old 12-02-2013, 06:24 PM   #49
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They are trying to sell the 14's so they won't come out with a "teaser" until '15.
They won't come out with a "teaser" until MY2015 because that's the smart thing to do. Who the hell shows anything about a future product two model years in advance?

And before anyone brings up the concept, it had zero plans for production at reveal.
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Old 12-02-2013, 08:55 PM   #50
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...agreed as Fen said, play close to the vest, nothings gained from an an early announcement other than product marketing hype. Don't show your cards before your hand is ready to be played.
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Old 12-02-2013, 09:40 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by wakespeak View Post
Come on any weight reduction affects fuel economy. GM spent millions on weight reduction programs, as have everyone else. Reducing weight via unsprung components is much more interesting to me in terms of its affect on the vehicle dynamics.

Does the Camaro need a 2-3 mpg increase? No. GM doesn't sell enough of them to affect CAFE ratings significantly. Does the Camaro need reasonable fuel economy? Yes. I mean 16-17 ish for the V8 city, around 20 combined. The Camaro won't be sold in numbers nor should it - its a niche product with good margins if it doesn't get watered down.

I hope Chevy continues to focus on VIR and Nuremburgh for the Camaro.

Now could Chevy come out with a product like the Subaru FRS? Yeah great, I am interested, but don't split the Camaro program to do it. Too many compromises.
Take a look at the NEW and IMPROVED CAFE standards brought to you by our leaders in Washington. You will notice that each car has it's own specific FE requirements based on the "footprint" size of the car. The Camaro needs to gain 6 mpg AVERAGE in the next few years. No loner can the low volume Camaro be covered by the higher volume cars.
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