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Old 11-21-2013, 12:39 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by karnov View Post
I owned a Turbo Redline Sky, which after the GM factory tune was pushing 290HP and 340tq. Add some high-flow cats and that 3000 lb. car was no joke.

A muscle car is was not, and can't come close to touching my new 1LE. However it would give a stock SS a run for it's money, especially in the corners a stock SS can not hang. Top end is another story, in straight-line a stock SS would overtake it, but the point is that it was a fun a$$ car to drive.

The problem with the Sky was that the design lacked all sense of practicality and didn't have back seat. You couldn't really use this car as a daily driver either as the quality was just not there and is where GM had to skimp just to get the car to production at the price they offered it.

Considering the 6th Gen will based on the Cadillac ATS platform, I could see offering a more sporty coupe style with a small back seat. A turbo 4-cylinder is not the end of the world... but the days of a Camaro being a "muscle car" would be over. I wouldn't call the new Mustang a "muscle car". It seems Ford has already thrown in the towel.
I'm not a ford fanboy, or a GM one, but throw in the towel is a bad phrase to use here.

The new Mustang will be lighter and faster than the current S197 5.0 powered vehicle. Just because it's base model is getting a turbo 4, does not mean it will not have V8 variety, or even FI V8. They won the last round of the pony car wars in performance, I have a feeling you'll see all three going lighter and more efficient.

I'm sorry but a 3200-3300lb Mustang with a 430hp V8 (rumored S550 specs) is nothing to sneeze at, considering the current S197 weighs around 3600-3700 and has 420hp, and outruns the SS in the 1/4 and 0-60. Let's not even talk about ZL1 to GT500 power to weights either. It's going to be tough to wrestle the 2+2 RWD performance car crown from Ford again in this generation, but let's hope GM steps up to the plate with a lighter, more powerful Camaro, as competition is a good thing.

It's adapting, not giving up. Chevy can't keep a bloated Camaro as well, hence they're dropping weight (Alpha) and going with more efficient drivetrains as well.

It's ok to be proud of your car, but don't let brand loyalty blind you. If anything, the HP wars are getting more exciting as cars are dropping weight and going up in power.
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Old 11-21-2013, 12:48 PM   #52
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I'm not a ford fanboy, or a GM one, but throw in the towel is a bad phrase to use here.

The new Mustang will be lighter and faster than the current S197 5.0 powered vehicle. Just because it's base model is getting a turbo 4, does not mean it will not have V8 variety, or even FI V8. They won the last round of the pony car wars in performance, I have a feeling you'll see all three going lighter and more efficient.

I'm sorry but a 3200-3300lb Mustang with a 430hp V8 (rumored S550 specs) is nothing to sneeze at, considering the current S197 weighs around 3600-3700 and has 420hp, and outruns the SS in the 1/4 and 0-60. Let's not even talk about ZL1 to GT500 power to weights either. It's going to be tough to wrestle the 2+2 RWD performance car crown from Ford again in this generation, but let's hope GM steps up to the plate with a lighter, more powerful Camaro, as competition is a good thing.

It's adapting, not giving up. Chevy can't keep a bloated Camaro as well, hence they're dropping weight (Alpha) and going with more efficient drivetrains as well.

It's ok to be proud of your car, but don't let brand loyalty blind you. If anything, the HP wars are getting more exciting as cars are dropping weight and going up in power.
I have to agree. The market is constantly shifting. Moreover, companies like GM and Ford have different goals. Ford is not the top grossing automaker and doesn't require the sales that GM does just to fund operations. GM's sales lead is almost misleading in that it only shows leadership in the pony car segment and not the massive expense of running the world's largest automaker. One might argue that if GM wasn't in the lead on such a halo-esque—albeit not halo due to the Corvette's standing—product it would reflect not only a poor product but a poor company. I wouldn't make these arguments personally, but I could see them being justified from a business standpoint.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:38 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Seer View Post
I'm not a ford fanboy, or a GM one, but throw in the towel is a bad phrase to use here.

The new Mustang will be lighter and faster than the current S197 5.0 powered vehicle. Just because it's base model is getting a turbo 4, does not mean it will not have V8 variety, or even FI V8. They won the last round of the pony car wars in performance, I have a feeling you'll see all three going lighter and more efficient.

I'm sorry but a 3200-3300lb Mustang with a 430hp V8 (rumored S550 specs) is nothing to sneeze at, considering the current S197 weighs around 3600-3700 and has 420hp, and outruns the SS in the 1/4 and 0-60. Let's not even talk about ZL1 to GT500 power to weights either. It's going to be tough to wrestle the 2+2 RWD performance car crown from Ford again in this generation, but let's hope GM steps up to the plate with a lighter, more powerful Camaro, as competition is a good thing.

It's adapting, not giving up. Chevy can't keep a bloated Camaro as well, hence they're dropping weight (Alpha) and going with more efficient drivetrains as well.

It's ok to be proud of your car, but don't let brand loyalty blind you. If anything, the HP wars are getting more exciting as cars are dropping weight and going up in power.
The S550 will weigh 3400+ with the coyote. The 13's weigh 3600. 200 pounds is pretty big diff though. I just hope it looks good, cuz the 13's are awesome looking.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:43 PM   #54
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The S550 will weigh 3400+ with the coyote. The 13's weigh 3600. 200 pounds is pretty big diff though. I just hope it looks good, cuz the 13's are awesome looking.
The mules are weighing in less. I own a 2012 Premium, its 3720lbs.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:44 PM   #55
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The mules are weighing in less. I own a 2012 Premium, its 3720lbs.
That's cuz they are mules. Full production s550 coyote's will weigh 3400+
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:46 PM   #56
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That's cuz they are mules. Full production s550 coyote's will weigh 3400+
Sorry, pre production mules, meaning equipped. The car went on a significant diet.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:48 PM   #57
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Sorry, pre production mules, meaning equipped. The car went on a significant diet.
It did, but the 3200 pound number is for the 4cyl...the coyote adds another 200+..
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:49 PM   #58
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It did, but the 3200 pound number is for the 4cyl...the coyote adds another 200+..
No it does not... it's an all aluminum motor. It's rather light weight for what it is. If going by FRPP's packaging weights, the 4cyl ecoboost is rated at 448lbs (including tranny), and the Coyote is at 430lbs. The LS3 through GMPP is 405lbs.

The S550 cars will be as balanced as possible nose to tail. With the 4cyl being roughly 80-100lbs lighter. The MT82 transmission is not very heavy as that was one of the reasons Ford went with it over the standard TR6060 in the S197 2011+ GT and kept it going forward.

Now the previous mod motor condor/trinity 5.4/5.8 had some weight.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:59 PM   #59
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Glad to see someone at GM doesn't have their head up their ass.
. I 2nd that. Every car i have ever owned has been a v8, and i dont plan on changing that anytime soon.
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:45 PM   #60
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A turbo 4 option for the Camaro would actually be awesome.

Turbo engines are really easy to mod and once the aftermarket figured out the ECM getting 400HP with simple bolt-ons would be easy. With a bunch of weight taken off the front it would almost certainly be more fun to drive than a V8.

Plus, if having a turbo 4 enables them to keep offering the V8 it's a total win.
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Old 11-21-2013, 03:05 PM   #61
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A turbo 4 option for the Camaro would actually be awesome.

Turbo engines are really easy to mod and once the aftermarket figured out the ECM getting 400HP with simple bolt-ons would be easy. With a bunch of weight taken off the front it would almost certainly be more fun to drive than a V8.

Plus, if having a turbo 4 enables them to keep offering the V8 it's a total win.
All those same things would also apply to a V6.
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Old 11-21-2013, 03:35 PM   #62
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All those same things would also apply to a V6.
You bet! The Ford guys are doing some amazing things with the Ecoboost 6.

The new Cadillac ATS has a TT 6 option factory rated at 400HP. The aftermarket will make that a monster.

Exciting times if you ask me.
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Old 11-21-2013, 03:56 PM   #63
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Give me the 1987 Grand national V6 Turbo Charged engine in a 2016 Camaro and I think we can put up some numbers on the track.
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Old 11-21-2013, 03:58 PM   #64
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May be a dumb question but

When the CAFE standards get to such a point where the V8 doesn't cut it anymore what is stopping these companies from selling a car without a motor and tranny and you order your own V8 crate motor and tranny package to install on your own or by a GM dealer? Just a question.
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Old 11-21-2013, 03:58 PM   #65
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Dang right...these are exciting times in performance no matter what group you are in...Turbo 4, V6, or V8.

I still don't believe the 5.0 Mustang will come in at 3,200 or 3,300 lbs. I'm with 87GNX and I'm betting on 3,400+ at the very least with the base Mustang possibly coming in at high 3,200 or 3,300 range. Even if the GT does weigh in the 3,400 to 3,500 lb range that still a good 150 - 200 lbs lost which is pretty significant. It will probably make the current Camaro SS look silly in a straight line.

I believe Ford will have the lighter pony car again this time around, but GM's ace in the hole is the LT1 V8. That engine is the holy grail of performance right now for the "average" joe. The 5.0, even with DI added will never match its TQ advantage and so even if the Camaro weighs a good 100 - 200 lbs more the LT1 should help even up the competition. Throw nothing but a tune and headers only on that LT1, and you go from 460ish HP and TQ to 500+ HP and TQ....its just incredible if you ask me.
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Old 11-21-2013, 04:15 PM   #66
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Give me the 1987 Grand national V6 Turbo Charged engine in a 2016 Camaro and I think we can put up some numbers on the track.
I had an 87 GN. It totally changed my mind about having to drive a V8.

It ran like 14.0 stock, but for around $1000... K&N, downpipe, adjustable fuel pressure regulator, a threaded rod to adjust the boost, and chip... it was easy 12.5.

Torque monster.

Coolest car ever.
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Old 11-21-2013, 04:24 PM   #67
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The Grand National was the car to beat on the street and at the track in the mid 80's. If you lighten the 2016 Camaro and drop in the V6 Turbo from the GN, I personally think the car would be a monster. I love both my 68 and 2014 V8 Camaro's but a GN/X is nothing to laugh at.
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Old 11-21-2013, 04:29 PM   #68
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JUST SAY NO NO NO NO!

You go Al..... JUST SAY NO!

I bet some may remember "Number 36 of 50" the 1982 Camaro Iron Duke

The TIME article: The 50 Worst Cars of All Time"

Don't ever forget that someone, somewhere, somehow, and for some reason thought that to start off in a NEW GEN that was a good idea...... NOT!
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Old 11-21-2013, 04:32 PM   #69
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The GNX produced 245 HP and 360 lb-ft of TQ. The new LF3 engine is producting 420 HP and 430 TQ, so you would probably be better off dropping one of those in it .
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:03 PM   #70
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Dang right...these are exciting times in performance no matter what group you are in...Turbo 4, V6, or V8.

I still don't believe the 5.0 Mustang will come in at 3,200 or 3,300 lbs. I'm with 87GNX and I'm betting on 3,400+ at the very least with the base Mustang possibly coming in at high 3,200 or 3,300 range. Even if the GT does weigh in the 3,400 to 3,500 lb range that still a good 150 - 200 lbs lost which is pretty significant. It will probably make the current Camaro SS look silly in a straight line.

I believe Ford will have the lighter pony car again this time around, but GM's ace in the hole is the LT1 V8. That engine is the holy grail of performance right now for the "average" joe. The 5.0, even with DI added will never match its TQ advantage and so even if the Camaro weighs a good 100 - 200 lbs more the LT1 should help even up the competition. Throw nothing but a tune and headers only on that LT1, and you go from 460ish HP and TQ to 500+ HP and TQ....its just incredible if you ask me.
I think the LT1 and Coyote are going to be neck and neck for awhile (depends on what ford does with it in the next mustang)....torque goes to bigger cubed LT1 but the Coyote is absolute beast..beast above 4k..Both great engines. IF Ford ever made a 6 liter coyote GM will be in deep shit for along time.
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:29 PM   #71
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I'm sorry but a 3200-3300lb Mustang with a 430hp V8 (rumored S550 specs) is nothing to sneeze at, considering the current S197 weighs around 3600-3700 and has 420hp, and outruns the SS in the 1/4 and 0-60. Let's not even talk about ZL1 to GT500 power to weights either. It's going to be tough to wrestle the 2+2 RWD performance car crown from Ford again in this generation, but let's hope GM steps up to the plate with a lighter, more powerful Camaro, as competition is a good thing.

It's adapting, not giving up. Chevy can't keep a bloated Camaro as well, hence they're dropping weight (Alpha) and going with more efficient drivetrains as well.

It's ok to be proud of your car, but don't let brand loyalty blind you. If anything, the HP wars are getting more exciting as cars are dropping weight and going up in power.
My money will be on Chevy next go 'round. You can listen to all the rumors you want, but the Mustang won't be losing 500 pounds while gaining an IRS, etc. Most of Chevy's 6th gen components are already out in cars like the ATS and the Stingray, and they perform as advertised.
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:47 PM   #72
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You go Al..... JUST SAY NO!

I bet some may remember "Number 36 of 50" the 1982 Camaro Iron Duke

The TIME article: The 50 Worst Cars of All Time"

Don't ever forget that someone, somewhere, somehow, and for some reason thought that to start off in a NEW GEN that was a good idea...... NOT!
If you honestly believe a new Camaro with a 4-cylinder would be as bad as the Iron Duke, well...

Obviously you know nothing about the LTG.
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:49 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy View Post
You bet! The Ford guys are doing some amazing things with the Ecoboost 6.

The new Cadillac ATS has a TT 6 option factory rated at 400HP. The aftermarket will make that a monster.

Exciting times if you ask me.
I was thinking more of a NA V6.
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:53 PM   #74
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I'm not a ford fanboy, or a GM one, but throw in the towel is a bad phrase to use here.

The new Mustang will be lighter and faster than the current S197 5.0 powered vehicle. Just because it's base model is getting a turbo 4, does not mean it will not have V8 variety, or even FI V8. They won the last round of the pony car wars in performance, I have a feeling you'll see all three going lighter and more efficient.

I'm sorry but a 3200-3300lb Mustang with a 430hp V8 (rumored S550 specs) is nothing to sneeze at, considering the current S197 weighs around 3600-3700 and has 420hp, and outruns the SS in the 1/4 and 0-60. Let's not even talk about ZL1 to GT500 power to weights either. It's going to be tough to wrestle the 2+2 RWD performance car crown from Ford again in this generation, but let's hope GM steps up to the plate with a lighter, more powerful Camaro, as competition is a good thing.

It's adapting, not giving up. Chevy can't keep a bloated Camaro as well, hence they're dropping weight (Alpha) and going with more efficient drivetrains as well.

It's ok to be proud of your car, but don't let brand loyalty blind you. If anything, the HP wars are getting more exciting as cars are dropping weight and going up in power.
Well, GM is holding the crown in muscle car sells since the camaro came out. So, i don't think GM is worried about performance . Mostly , everyone will mod their car to be faster than another. Camaro 1LE vs. any mustang besides the GT500 wins. Ford is dropping weight too on the Mustang . So, I don't know what you're talking about.

Like GM is the only one doing it or Like GM is dropping the weight because they feel that the camaro is bloated. I guess that the mustang is bloated too. huh? Camaro holds the crown on track course.

I wonder why a lot of ppl are trading in their mustang for a camaro ? I like the mustang too. Especially the 13's and 14's.
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:26 PM   #75
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