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Old 11-20-2013, 10:52 PM   #26
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Isn't the ELR intended to be low volume since it's a luxury car? The Volt is doing better than it was but it's not exactly in Camry territory sales wise is it? I'm just saying it's hard to push economy car sales.
...and that's the rub. While our consumers can still have their cake and eat it too car wise about the choice of gasoline powered internal combustion engines , the crush won't occur until the GOV mandates it, or the manufacturers are forced into it. Hybrids and battery opp cars are the future. You know all this better than I Fen. I am just speaking out loud to the others. Look at the development of that technology and it's implementation. It's not a Buick gas engine retro-fitted into a diesel like back in the 80's. Estimates based on current development of North American energy supplies suggest we could be free from importing foreign energy by 2015 at the earliest. The potential exists. Wouldn't that be something! Plus long range batteries for vehicles will reduce in price soon. It's all about what time in history one grew up in and what their expectation is about performance going forward. I'm a hands in the bucket washing the shop floor off with gasoline guy <the best cleaner ever>....but I see the big picture. We have to go to alternative energy sources and reduce the carbon footprint. The Volt is a great car. GM has done alot of foreward thinking into alternative fuel sources.
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Old 11-20-2013, 11:22 PM   #27
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Isn't the ELR intended to be low volume since it's a luxury car? The Volt is doing better than it was but it's not exactly in Camry territory sales wise is it? I'm just saying it's hard to push economy car sales.
Nobody's saying it's in Camry territory and nobody's expecting it to be. The car still consistently sells over a thousand units a month. To say nobody's buying it is just flat-out wrong.
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Old 11-21-2013, 08:59 AM   #28
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Huh how'd we get to volt.. I test drove one slow seemed to hesitate.. I see the same ones sitting on the lots. 1000 volt sales a month is SS territory right?? Wait now I'm off topic.. I think a 4 cylinder isn't a bad thing.. Had that turbo in the Buick regal worked fine..
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Old 11-21-2013, 09:47 AM   #29
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Old 11-21-2013, 10:00 AM   #30
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the 4cyl ecoboost going in the new mustang has a hp rating higher than both the current V6 Mustang and Camaro offerings. They are not using a 2.3L Turbo, but a 2.5L Turbo 4, at around 320-330hp, combine this with the rumored 250-400lb weight loss of the Mustang in the S550 chassis, and it will be a potent base car.

So Al's statement of fighting for every HP he can, isn't really valid. Unless he intends to use the 4.2L V6 TT as the base Camaro engine for 6th gen, which I somewhat doubt.

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If its not up to the chief engineer, then who gets to decide?
GM Accountants.
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Old 11-21-2013, 10:05 AM   #31
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Wait a minute....

I'm not going to confirm or deny anything - BUT - this thread is very disturbing to me - because once again - someone at GM says something and people 'extrapolate' (....I've been burned so much that I need to wear a flame suit anytime I travel.....) Please show me where in the article that Al says "no 4 cylinder engine" -- he MAY have said that he's fighting for every single horsepower - and I do know that's true........

Someone mentioned CAFE - CAFE law provides a 54.6 MPG average by the mid 2020s........that average includes LD Silverado and SUVs......think about that for a minute.......

I don't think ANYTHING is off the table as we move forward.

For those who I've talked to personally - I've given my OPINION that V8s will be around for a while - BUT -- because of CAFE - the cost of the V8 is going to become much more expensive...... You can still get blistering performance, but it MAY NOT be always from a V8 engine.

So unless you have a direct quote from Al - and I do not believe anyone does -- take this thread with a grain of salt.

Let's not turn this into a "Panic du Jour"...........
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Old 11-21-2013, 10:07 AM   #32
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Reduce the weight of the vehicle, the Turbo 4 becomes viable, and can even provide a HP bump over the NA V6. Which is exactly what Ford did. Reduce weight, and increase HP.

There's nothing wrong with "following" Ford in this formula, as it is common sense, nothing ground breaking.
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Old 11-21-2013, 10:08 AM   #33
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320HP + out of a 4 cyc turbo.. That's impresive.. Dec 5th.. tic toc tic toc.
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Old 11-21-2013, 10:09 AM   #34
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320HP + out of a 4 cyc turbo.. That's impresive.. Dec 5th.. tic toc tic toc.
Even if the information isn't accurate and they only muster 270-300hp, with the weight difference on the new chassis, it's still going to be faster than the current V6 Mustang.

What we know is, the Focus ST uses a 2.0L Turbo at 250hp, Ford stated the Mustang will have a larger/more powerful 4cyl ecoboost motor.
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Old 11-21-2013, 10:13 AM   #35
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something else to consider:

Did it ever occur to anyone that perhaps there ARE some non-traditional buyers who would buy a Mustang with a 4 cylinder?

Not everyone wants a 400+ horsepower V8 - or, for that matter, a 300+ hp V6?

As a product planner - one needs to consider this........
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Old 11-21-2013, 10:16 AM   #36
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something else to consider:

Did it ever occur to anyone that perhaps there ARE some non-traditional buyers who would buy a Mustang with a 4 cylinder?

Not everyone wants a 400+ horsepower V8 - or, for that matter, a 300+ hp V6?

As a product planner - one needs to consider this........
Or the fact Ford is going to sell the Mustang in Europe and Asia for the first time with this generation new on dealer lots.

4cyl Turbo is the logical step for them to offer this engine. Ford has their eyes set on the BMW 4 Series and Audi 5 Series with the new Mustang to fight it out with in Europe, as well as compete with the Camaro here and forgive me for saying this but with it's confirmed weight loss, new suspension setup and brakes, perhaps even some of the Corvettes as well.
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Old 11-21-2013, 10:24 AM   #37
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Isn't the L99 Camaro a 4 Cylinder at least part of the time?
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Old 11-21-2013, 10:56 AM   #38
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Well said
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Old 11-21-2013, 11:22 AM   #39
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Great leadership by Oppenheiser. The Camaro is a distinct performance car product. Putting a 4 cyl in a BMW 6 series makes no sense either. GM can build another rear drive product that uses a 4 cyl, but don't call it a Camaro.

I think the Mustang Ecoboost 4 cyl will have the same outcome as the Ecoboost V-6 in trucks: same or worse real world mpg at the cost of more complexity and reliability.

This CAFE thing is such a damn candy a$$ way of managing demand by controlling the supply of vehicles. Just let the cost of fuel rise and let consumers make their choices. Australia has double the fuel costs we have but there are still plenty of V-8s. CAFE reminds me of the 55 mph speed limit.
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Old 11-21-2013, 11:33 AM   #40
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the 4cyl ecoboost going in the new mustang has a hp rating higher than both the current V6 Mustang and Camaro offerings. They are not using a 2.3L Turbo, but a 2.5L Turbo 4, at around 320-330hp, combine this with the rumored 250-400lb weight loss of the Mustang in the S550 chassis, and it will be a potent base car.
...


Where'd you see this? 2.0 is currently the larger of their 4 cylinder turbo options (here in the U.S.) The 2.3 is a new engine (at least for us) and is going into the new Lincoln MKC crossover first with 270HP and 300TQ. It is then expected to be used in the Mustang with a more aggressive tune. Probably in the realm of 290+ HP and 320+ TQ

I really don't see Ford using 2.0, 2.3, and a 2.5 litre 4 cylinder turbo engines...it seems a bit overkill but if you've got some proof I'd be curious to see it.

Mustang6g follows this stuff pretty dang closely, and I see no mention of a 2.5 there.


Anyways...if GM uses an N/A V6 versus a T4 from Ford, the V6 will always be at somewhat of a TQ disadvantage, but I'm expecting at least 330 or more HP (hopefully 340 or more like the Hyndai Genesis coupe) so the V6 shouldn't be at a HP disadvantage. It just won't be as quick off the line if this is the case.
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Old 11-21-2013, 11:46 AM   #41
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something else to consider:

Did it ever occur to anyone that perhaps there ARE some non-traditional buyers who would buy a Mustang with a 4 cylinder?

Not everyone wants a 400+ horsepower V8 - or, for that matter, a 300+ hp V6?

As a product planner - one needs to consider this........
Of course it has occured to us...or at least some of us. But if you take a quick look at the HUGE thread in this section titled "Why would anyone want a 4 cyc 2016 Camaro?" you'll see there are a bunch of people that either still 1) have no clue that you can get good power from a turbo 4 cylinder... 2) Believe a 4 cylinder of any type has no place in a Camaro 3) Wouldn't buy a 4 cylinder car even if it ran 9s in the quarter mile and got 1000MPG.

I'll even admit I'd likely buy a V6 (just because I'm partial to this particular engine) over a compariable turbo 4. Now if the T4 was much faster...well then that could change my mind. But I see the potential of a powerful T4 engine in a car with a relatively light Alpha based chasis. It would make for a heck of a good car. If GM doesn't want to put one in a Camaro, I can see a market for a smaller light coupe with a powerful turbo 4 engine....something that would equal the BRZ/FRS in handling but pull away from it in the straights.

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Or the fact Ford is going to sell the Mustang in Europe and Asia for the first time with this generation new on dealer lots.

4cyl Turbo is the logical step for them to offer this engine. Ford has their eyes set on the BMW 4 Series and Audi 5 Series with the new Mustang to fight it out with in Europe, as well as compete with the Camaro here and forgive me for saying this but with it's confirmed weight loss, new suspension setup and brakes, perhaps even some of the Corvettes as well.
Going global is a huge reason for a 4 cylinder in the Mustang. In some countries, the Mustang can cost WAYYYYYYY higher just for the simple fact it has a V8. Even a V6 gets absurdly expensive. But throw a 4 cylinder in there and it starts to become within reach of a lot more people.
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Old 11-21-2013, 11:46 AM   #42
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Never sell your V8 my friends...
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Old 11-21-2013, 11:49 AM   #43
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Where'd you see this? 2.0 is currently the larger of their 4 cylinder turbo options (here in the U.S.) The 2.3 is a new engine (at least for us) and is going into the new Lincoln MKC crossover first with 270HP and 300TQ. It is then expected to be used in the Mustang with a more aggressive tune. Probably in the realm of 290+ HP and 320+ TQ

I really don't see Ford using 2.0, 2.3, and a 2.5 litre 4 cylinder turbo engines...it seems a bit overkill but if you've got some proof I'd be curious to see it.

Mustang6g follows this stuff pretty dang closely, and I see no mention of a 2.5 there.


Anyways...if GM uses an N/A V6 versus a T4 from Ford, the V6 will always be at somewhat of a TQ disadvantage, but I'm expecting at least 330 or more HP (hopefully 340 or more like the Hyndai Genesis coupe) so the V6 shouldn't be at a HP disadvantage. It just won't be as quick off the line if this is the case.
Taken from the marketing survey given to those who have actually seen the car and broke nda



This might be a good measuring stick
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Old 11-21-2013, 11:53 AM   #44
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Taken from the marketing survey given to those who have actually seen the car and broke nda



This might be a good measuring stick
I saw that as well, but I believe those displacements listed were considered to be "faked" whereas the power listed may be fairly close to expected output.

We'll see soon enough!
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Old 11-21-2013, 11:57 AM   #45
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I saw that as well, but I believe those displacements listed were considered to be "faked" whereas the power listed may be fairly close to expected output.

We'll see soon enough!
yes, all .1 to .2 larger or smaller.

Obviously the rumored 5.5L and 6.2L weren't listed when the survey was taken, but those cars have been spotted in the wild, along with a TT variant.

Also with Ford copyrighting GT350 and Mach 1, again who knows.
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Old 11-21-2013, 12:00 PM   #46
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Interesting anecdotes: We have some younger buyers who have bought V6 Camaros - and their friends are teasing them about it..........


..............not because they didn't buy a V8 - but because their friends think a 4 cylinder is the way to go.....

The point in all of this: YOU and I may not want a 4 cylinder engine - but that doesn't mean there may not be a market for it.

You can believe that if Ford intends to offer a 4 cylinder engine - it's been researched in many more ways than just reading this site.
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Old 11-21-2013, 12:11 PM   #47
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Interesting anecdotes: We have some younger buyers who have bought V6 Camaros - and their friends are teasing them about it..........


..............not because they didn't buy a V8 - but because their friends think a 4 cylinder is the way to go.....

The point in all of this: YOU and I may not want a 4 cylinder engine - but that doesn't mean there may not be a market for it.

You can believe that if Ford intends to offer a 4 cylinder engine - it's been researched in many more ways than just reading this site.
That definitely happens. But when you have a car as sexy as the 5th gen most people are willing to give up a little something to have that beautiful ride. I have a lot of respect for some of the turbo 4 imports....for their power. Not their looks.

A bit off topic but...

Case in point...my car is 4 years old now. Earlier this week as I went through a fast food drive thru the girl in the window was generally excited to see my car and told me how gorgeous she thought it was. Now how many other cars can do that after 4 years?? Not many at all except for the high end or exotics. Camaro is neither (to many people).

Nail the design first. (yes I know easier said than done)

We all know the cars are going to perform incredibly.
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Old 11-21-2013, 12:22 PM   #48
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I'm ok with turbo 4s, or turbo 6s, or any sort of V8. Buy what you want.

I'm ok with having to pay to play. You want a V8, then you'll pay more. OK. I'm good with that.

We got 4 "sizes" of HP for our current Camaros (soon to be 5 when the Z/28 gets here). Not everyone wants or needs max hp. The neat thing is, all Camaros can substitute as a grocery getter and at the flick of the throttle, every one of them can put a smile on your face! Isn't that the point?
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Old 11-21-2013, 12:25 PM   #49
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Old 11-21-2013, 12:30 PM   #50
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Well my little 4 banger 170hp Sky got the same mpg as my big 323HP V6.... Small doesn't necessarily mean better mileage.
I owned a Turbo Redline Sky, which after the GM factory tune was pushing 290HP and 340tq. Add some high-flow cats and that 3000 lb. car was no joke.

A muscle car is was not, and can't come close to touching my new 1LE. However it would give a stock SS a run for it's money, especially in the corners a stock SS can not hang. Top end is another story, in straight-line a stock SS would overtake it, but the point is that it was a fun a$$ car to drive.

The problem with the Sky was that the design lacked all sense of practicality and didn't have back seat. You couldn't really use this car as a daily driver either as the quality was just not there and is where GM had to skimp just to get the car to production at the price they offered it.

Considering the 6th Gen will based on the Cadillac ATS platform, I could see offering a more sporty coupe style with a small back seat. A turbo 4-cylinder is not the end of the world... but the days of a Camaro being a "muscle car" would be over. I wouldn't call the new Mustang a "muscle car". It seems Ford has already thrown in the towel.
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