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Old 08-18-2013, 05:25 AM   #176
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Old 08-18-2013, 05:36 AM   #177
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I am glad you went back to this design with some tweeks looks good. Is there any way you could use this vent to your new design? Lose the centerline and then change the gills in the back. Then starting with the upper vent line, make them skinnier and curve slightly with the wheel arch. Try 3 gills then maybe 2. I like the direction you are going.
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Old 08-18-2013, 10:56 AM   #178
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I am glad you went back to this design with some tweeks looks good. Is there any way you could use this vent to your new design? Lose the centerline and then change the gills in the back. Then starting with the upper vent line, make them skinnier and curve slightly with the wheel arch. Try 3 gills then maybe 2. I like the direction you are going.
The thing with side vents is there are SO many sizes, shapes and variations you can choose but only one of them will look "right". You would not believe how much time I've spent tweaking shapes, sizes and LOCATION trying to get something that looked like it should be there.

Here are a couple of variations of front side vents, which may or may not work with rear side vents. It's real easy to clutter up the design if you put too many visual elements in there.
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Old 08-18-2013, 11:25 AM   #179
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Yes these were/are great points that really help focus what people see as a muscle car versus a sports car. After thinking about it I believe people see a muscle car as a straight-line accelerator; hence why so many talk about what it can do in the 1/4 mile. A sports car is upgraded from just power, to power and handling so it can handle the curves which is why they tend to have curvy, sleeker shapes to reflect their design purpose of handling curves.

Times have changed though and now the pony/muscle car class is evolving towards sports car territory and that's where there's clashing expectations among those who still want a 427 big block muscle car, and those who want a powerful all-round road car. I've been doing sports car gt designs mostly and it seems they don't have enough "muscle" look.
I think the greatest appeal of both the classic and modern "muscle car" is that they do not appear competitive against the more aerodynamically styled sports cars. They are not the sleekest, lightest or most aerodynamically efficient vehicles. Either from stoplight to stoplight, on the 1/4 or on the road course, you want the guy in the sports car with jet plane aerodynamics to be befuddled as to how you beat him. He bought a Ferrari, so what? You bought an engine, suspension and brake package that defies the common understanding of physics for half the price or less.

The fact that a 2012 ZL1 puts down almost equal stats as a 2012 Corvette Grandsport, is what I'm talking about. The common person does not believe a Camaro and a Corvette are in the same league. When they line up at the start of any type of race, most bets would be for the car that looks faster. At least until the Green light or flag drops.

Now I'm not saying putting an LS9 into a Volkswagen Beetle wouldn't shock everyone but you still want to look a little cool in your car.

I believe it is the powerful image of the 5th Gen that reinvigorated the Camaro. It seems to me it was the "bubbly" flowing aerodynamics that killed the Camaro's appeal and sales from 1993 - 2002. At least, no Camaro since the first gen has appealed to me until the 5th Gen. Tap into that main design difference and you may find the formula that actually works for Camaro. The Camaro shouldn't look like it's trying to compete at Le Mans. It should look like a great car to drive all week and then shock everyone at your local Club Race. Also remember that, as the platform gets smaller, the passengers dont. A smaller platform will still need to look like it seats 4 with some measure of comfort. If the greenhouse is too short, it begins to look like it wants to be a Corvette.


This holden HSV Coupe concept contains some styling cues that I hope might illustrate (but not necessarily exemplify) what I'm trying to describe. I already mentioned the largish fascia with headlight lenses that face the wind and large air-sucking holes. The forward lean with every line sloping downwards toward the front. The line that curves around the front fender flair and then extends back until it outlines the rear deck. The lines from the vents that also extend back until they either join the rear wheel flair or fade into the rear. The rear end angled upward and a large diffuser that looks like the car is showing you its balls as it passes. The whole car looks like it's pushing wind out of it's way rather than slipping gracefully through it. "It shouldn't appear to be as fast and agile as it is."




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Old 08-18-2013, 11:57 AM   #180
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Ok don't laugh as I am using paint but I was thinking something along this line. Of course it needs shading and straight lines ....lol
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Old 08-18-2013, 04:42 PM   #181
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Here are some GM concepts built on the Alpha platform to use as possible scale references.

EDIT: Though Doc may be on to something in his sleeker more sport oriented design for his Camaro concept. From my reading on these alpha platform based concepts it seems from rumors that GM may be sliding a long lost and familiar nameplate in between the Camaro and SS. ...."Chevelle".






Does anyone else see Camaro inspired lines in this Buick Riviera Concept?








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Old 08-19-2013, 01:14 AM   #182
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I think the greatest appeal of both the classic and modern "muscle car" is that they do not appear competitive against the more aerodynamically styled sports cars. They are not the sleekest, lightest or most aerodynamically efficient vehicles. Either from stoplight to stoplight, on the 1/4 or on the road course, you want the guy in the sports car with jet plane aerodynamics to be befuddled as to how you beat him. He bought a Ferrari, so what? You bought an engine, suspension and brake package that defies the common understanding of physics for half the price or less.

The fact that a 2012 ZL1 puts down almost equal stats as a 2012 Corvette Grandsport, is what I'm talking about. The common person does not believe a Camaro and a Corvette are in the same league. When they line up at the start of any type of race, most bets would be for the car that looks faster. At least until the Green light or flag drops.

Now I'm not saying putting an LS9 into a Volkswagen Beetle wouldn't shock everyone but you still want to look a little cool in your car.

I believe it is the powerful image of the 5th Gen that reinvigorated the Camaro. It seems to me it was the "bubbly" flowing aerodynamics that killed the Camaro's appeal and sales from 1993 - 2002. At least, no Camaro since the first gen has appealed to me until the 5th Gen. Tap into that main design difference and you may find the formula that actually works for Camaro. The Camaro shouldn't look like it's trying to compete at Le Mans. It should look like a great car to drive all week and then shock everyone at your local Club Race. Also remember that, as the platform gets smaller, the passengers dont. A smaller platform will still need to look like it seats 4 with some measure of comfort. If the greenhouse is too short, it begins to look like it wants to be a Corvette.


This holden HSV Coupe concept contains some styling cues that I hope might illustrate (but not necessarily exemplify) what I'm trying to describe. I already mentioned the largish fascia with headlight lenses that face the wind and large air-sucking holes. The forward lean with every line sloping downwards toward the front. The line that curves around the front fender flair and then extends back until it outlines the rear deck. The lines from the vents that also extend back until they either join the rear wheel flair or fade into the rear. The rear end angled upward and a large diffuser that looks like the car is showing you its balls as it passes. The whole car looks like it's pushing wind out of it's way rather than slipping gracefully through it. "It shouldn't appear to be as fast and agile as it is."




Your comment about muscle cars "appearing" to not be competitive to sports cars wasn't a design choice. Back in the day it was more a choice of having to mass produce a car on a Detroit assembly line with stamped sheet metal as opposed to the Ferrari, Jaguar, Maserati, Porsche bodies that were hand-sculpted which is why they were so aerodynamic looking. The "foreign" exotics would be produced in hundreds per year while Detroit could crank out hundreds of thousands. They didn't have computer controlled anything back then the way they do now.

People certainly wanted the exotic look but most couldn't afford it. Enter pony/muscle cars which, even though they weren't exactly exotic looking were more "sporty" like looks-wise. However they made up for their lack of exotic looks with the one thing Detroit did best; engines. Detroit iron could deliver massive amounts of horsepower and torque compared to their "foreign" counterparts and that gave pony/muscle cars their advantage to overcome the aerodynamic shortcomings of their stamped sheet metal bodies. And while they were at it they also happened to deliver some pretty darned attractive bodies out of stamped sheet metal too.

And best of all? These Detroit machines were affordable! Hot rodders could mod the crud out of their muscle cars because engines and transmissions were cheap then and it was easy to do; completely the opposite of the foreign exotic cars. Thus everyone could make their car their "own" which was pretty much as popular as the car itself; a tradition that continues today.

Jump to today and computerized design/manufacturing along with the amazing improvements in materials has enabled manufacturers to do things their forefathers in the 60's could hardly even dream of. People "want it all" now and designers/manufacturers are delivering. I'm seeing bodywork and sculpted lines on everyday cars you wouldn't have seen on anything less than a custom, hand-built, one-off studio design concept 50 years ago. And they can mass produce cars like this now!

But still...people love the exotic look. The 5th gen, although inspired by the 1969 Camaro was a fabulous modern design that looked fast and powerful. GM took a gamble on it and it paid off big. Considering the "hot trend" 7 years ago was eco-friendly hybrids like the Prius, the idea of producing a car like the 5th gen was crazy. But people loved it. It looked exotic compared to eco cars but eco cars, small cars, sedans, even SUV's have made vast improvements in their styling and are borrowing heavily from the "exotic" look now days. However with the Z/28 climbing up there in price this new generation of hybrid muscle/sports/exotic is starting to get pricey.

So what do you do when everybody starts to have the same kinds of "looks" in their vehicle designs? My thought? Take it beyond to the next level. I'm thinking something that looks like NASA might have designed it; pure form and function...military jet fighter-like. Nobody is doing that right now; they're all doing batman movie-car/joker limo/gangster/heavy beast/transformer robot look. My thought is that a sleek, clean, no-nonsense, no-gimmick look that is as fast as it looks might be the next "new thing". I could be wrong; there's no doubt doing current trendy will sell for a few years but in the long run I'm thinking a clean, beautiful design will appeal to a wide range of buyers and have more staying power in the marketplace. A great design is still great 5 years from now; a trendy design isn't.

Great great discussion though... I really appreciate you taking the time to give this feedback!!

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Ok don't laugh as I am using paint but I was thinking something along this line. Of course it needs shading and straight lines ....lol
I'm not laughing at all; believe me, I appreciate you taking the time and effort because this isn't easy by any means! Here's a couple of renders based on yours and others suggestions. View A has the big fender flares that usually gives the visual appearance of "muscle". View B is a version of your idea.
Name:  2016 Camaro Concept8b4.jpg
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Originally Posted by silverds View Post
Here are some GM concepts built on the Alpha platform to use as possible scale references.

EDIT: Though Doc may be on to something in his sleeker more sport oriented design for his Camaro concept. From my reading on these alpha platform based concepts it seems from rumors that GM may be sliding a long lost and familiar nameplate in between the Camaro and SS. ...."Chevelle".

"My comments below are in red - Doc"


"My first thought when seeing this: FROG"


"Fiat on steroids (proof steroids are bad for you)"

Does anyone else see Camaro inspired lines in this Buick Riviera Concept?


"I do and in fact it looks a lot like the George Loizou concept render"


"Beautiful...!"


"Porsche 911"


"Nice looking. Front looks like it was inspired by an SUV but still very nicely done."

Based on those images showing the Alpha platform I think I'm pretty darned close on the wheelbase for my designs. My wheels might be a touch too big though, but maybe those concept wheels are smaller than I think...maybe 17's or 18's? My design is for 19's or 20's.

After studying it I realized that Holden concept car has that beefy look because of those massive fender flares. Take those away and it's a nice looking sedan but wouldn't have that muscle look. That seems to be the trick with the "muscle" look nowadays is to go with big beefy fender flare extensions. Pick-up trucks and SUV's are having that look now. In the A view of my design I posted up above I put big fender flares on the design but either I did it wrong or it just doesn't work with my design. It looks "off" to me; doesn't look like they belong... maybe it's just me.

Since everybody is currently fishing with their designs to try and be different it's interesting to see what they're experimenting with on those concept cars.

I want the Camaro to be leading-edge. I don't want it to be a "trend". I realize many want a "man" car but I'm trying to design a muscle/sports car that appeals to more than just young males. The Camaro has a large female customer base and I think it would be a mistake to alienate them. I want the Camaro to look fast, clean, pure, precision, refined.... powerful yet elegant and classy. Something you can take a date out to dinner in; yet make no mistake... at any given moment... "Camaro; you are cleared for launch" and blam...you're supersonic. I'm taking a chance here with this concept; bucking the trend. Maybe it could be a Chevelle. Maybe it could be something new; more refined than a Camaro; not as "wild child" as a Corvette; not as luxury as a Cadillac. A new breed of performance elegance.

Or quite possibly.....I'm just wasting my time HAH! But at any rate this is more interesting than watching the junk on TV.
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Old 08-19-2013, 07:40 AM   #183
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Take it beyond to the next level. I'm thinking something that looks like NASA might have designed it; pure form and function...
You might not be too far off. I'm certain GM has used NASA as inspiration in the past.

LOL All in fun.....



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Old 08-19-2013, 09:55 AM   #184
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Here are 3 variations. View A is trying out side vents and side markers. Views B and C are similar except in view B I'm trying out an idea for a stylized front side marker light, but the back is not quite as stylized. View C experiments with side marker lights and I clipped the top of the rear wheel well to create the visual impression of the line extending from the side vents, even though there's no actual line there. I also gave slightly more definition to the line around the rear vents in view C compared to view B, and view C has the CAMARO letters in black instead of chrome.

Right now view C is my favorite. That car would look good in white, silver, red, yellow, metallic grey, a frosty metallic champagne blue, butterscotch orange, and an SR71 style black.
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Old 08-19-2013, 12:30 PM   #185
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Been lurking for a while on this thread. Doc, great work. I really like the rendering just above (B) with the non traditional side markers.

Keep up the good work.
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Old 08-19-2013, 02:56 PM   #186
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Been lurking for a while on this thread. Doc, great work. I really like the rendering just above (B) with the non traditional side markers.

Keep up the good work.
Thank you! That idea popped into my head when I was thinking of strobe lights. I don't recall seeing anything like this before so I thought I'd give it a try. I've taken it a bit further with these two renders; view C having a modified front version that's shaped to look like the lines flow from the front grill, moved back and with more space between the orange bars.
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Old 08-19-2013, 03:22 PM   #187
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These renderings kinda remind me of a car from the 80s
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Old 08-19-2013, 03:24 PM   #188
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These renderings kinda remind me of a car from the 80s
lol... which one is that?
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Old 08-19-2013, 03:25 PM   #189
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Thank you! That idea popped into my head when I was thinking of strobe lights. I don't recall seeing anything like this before so I thought I'd give it a try. I've taken it a bit further with these two renders; view C having a modified front version that's shaped to look like the lines flow from the front grill, moved back and with more space between the orange bars.
Attachment 547930
Now we are cooking with peanut oil! I like B, looks great. I was working on with paint and made the vents a little bigger, kind of rough but you get the idea. I do however like it smaller also. Your marker lights look sharp, very unique.
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Old 08-19-2013, 04:53 PM   #190
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I see a lot of NSX influence in your designs. That's nothing to be ashamed of though. These cars were first built in the 90's and still turn heads.








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Old 08-19-2013, 05:37 PM   #191
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I see a lot of NSX influence in your designs. That's nothing to be ashamed of though. These cars were first built in the 90's and still turn heads.









I agree, it is a very clean design and yet still holds up to this day. Here is a little change on the holden coupe.
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Old 08-19-2013, 06:59 PM   #192
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If you look at the curvature of the side and the shape of the wheel well openings then look at the picture of the 4th gen I posted, you should see a resembelance. Not including the roof and side windows.
Ah, okay. I see what you mean.


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In view A I put a fairly hefty fender flare over the rear wheel (is that enough of a "hip"?)
No, no. Like this:
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Old 08-19-2013, 07:05 PM   #193
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I've been working on some fairly drastic changes to the above render, I hope you won't mind. I'm not done though. I intended to do the 'hip' only, but it quickly snowballed, so I figured I'd just show one with the hip only while it's still relevant.
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Old 08-19-2013, 08:36 PM   #194
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Now we are cooking with peanut oil! I like B, looks great. I was working on with paint and made the vents a little bigger, kind of rough but you get the idea. I do however like it smaller also. Your marker lights look sharp, very unique.
Wow you REALLY want to carve into the side! lol

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I see a lot of NSX influence in your designs. That's nothing to be ashamed of though. These cars were first built in the 90's and still turn heads.
Yeah there is a slight bit of that in the fender line. That type of fender line shows in more than a few cars; one of my favorites is the Ferrari F50.
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Ah, okay. I see what you mean.

No, no. Like this:
Okay so you prefer the more discreet fender flare. I'll bring that one back and do a front version.

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I've been working on some fairly drastic changes to the above render, I hope you won't mind. I'm not done though. I intended to do the 'hip' only, but it quickly snowballed, so I figured I'd just show one with the hip only while it's still relevant.
Feel free to post your suggestions. And thank you for caring and making the effort!
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Old 08-19-2013, 11:16 PM   #195
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Now we are cooking with peanut oil! I like B, looks great. I was working on with paint and made the vents a little bigger, kind of rough but you get the idea. I do however like it smaller also. Your marker lights look sharp, very unique.
This one is for you...raising the side detail that high really eats up the side of the car lol...I don't know... what do you think? I also made the fog lights white which it looked like you preferred. I stuck with my strobe side marker light idea to see if it works with your idea. The 3 light segments compliment the 3 side vents. I'm still not sold on fender flares; so far I like the idea of going with a clean pure side without even a fender lip because EVERYBODY else is doing fender flare bulges. You can't differentiate yourself from the competition unless you do something different than what they're doing.
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Old 08-19-2013, 11:34 PM   #196
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Okay so you prefer the more discreet fender flare. I'll bring that one back and do a front version.

Feel free to post your suggestions. And thank you for caring and making the effort!
While I did calm the flare some, that isn't what I meant. However, a matching front is desperately needed.
This might better illustrate what I'm talking about. It's still subtle and flows smoothly with the rest, but gives it a more aggressive stance:
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:19 AM   #197
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This I like!!!

Oh HE!! yes...that is absolutely sinister looking - I'd even give up the 'vert for that!
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Old 08-20-2013, 08:11 AM   #198
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This one is for you...raising the side detail that high really eats up the side of the car lol...I don't know... what do you think? I also made the fog lights white which it looked like you preferred. I stuck with my strobe side marker light idea to see if it works with your idea. The 3 light segments compliment the 3 side vents. I'm still not sold on fender flares; so far I like the idea of going with a clean pure side without even a fender lip because EVERYBODY else is doing fender flare bulges. You can't differentiate yourself from the competition unless you do something different than what they're doing.
Attachment 548121

I completely agree with what you are saying in a clean design. I think of the Ferrari GTO 288 and how the whole fender is the flare and yet still clean. But to go with that I like some visual excitement on the side. I like your picture but it might be too much for a camaro. I like the round wheel well instead of the squared off, and maybe a rounder quarter panel like ALLTRBO posted. Instead of the light bars in the grill maybe a smaller 3-panel light to go with your side markers, I don't know. Anyway keep up the good work !!
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Old 08-20-2013, 08:24 AM   #199
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This news is from March so it may be outdated by now but at least we have a statement.

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Perhaps his most telling comment, Oppenheiser hints that the styling update is likely to be evolution and not revolution. “We always have to stay fresh and ahead.” Still, he says, “we do not want to lose the fact that we have nearly 40 percent of the market.”
Ref. 2016 Camaro May Shed Weight, Get Downsized Engines Hints Chief Engineer

This leads me to believe that GM plans to simply (or not so simply) evolve the styling of the 5th Gen, rather than create a new design. Does the C7 Corvette foretell what GM's interpretation of "evolve" means?
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Old 08-20-2013, 08:38 AM   #200
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Does the C7 Corvette foretell what GM's interpretation of "evolve" means?
Yes.
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