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Old 06-23-2013, 07:25 AM   #101
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It makes all the sense in the world to a structural guy.

The Corvette has a completely different structural arrangement from the Camaro - it's a body on a separate frame, where the metal frame provides virtually all of the chassis strength and stiffness.

Camaros, Mustangs, Challengers, and virtually all other current cars are of unibody designs that count heavily on the roof structure for meeting chassis structural requirements. Convertibles on those chassis typically have additional bracing underneath to try to make up for come of that "loss" (and weigh a bit more overall partly because of this).


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Old 07-05-2013, 01:02 AM   #102
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those cars do not look good... any good vibes u have from em are prob due to nostalgia
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Old 07-05-2013, 02:24 AM   #103
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This thread is such a circle jerk. I know there are a lot of you with deep Camaro roots that like the 4th gen, but that catfish isn't respected by anyone else. It's ugly, the interior looks like garbage, it isn't a headturner at all, and the fastest one barely makes more horsepower than the current V6's, AND it handles like crap.

They did the right thing in making the new Z28 a Boss killer and making it a track focused car.
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Old 07-05-2013, 03:00 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by buckeyemike View Post
This thread is such a circle jerk. I know there are a lot of you with deep Camaro roots that like the 4th gen, but that catfish isn't respected by anyone else. It's ugly, the interior looks like garbage, it isn't a headturner at all, and the fastest one barely makes more horsepower than the current V6's, AND it handles like crap.

They did the right thing in making the new Z28 a Boss killer and making it a track focused car.
It may "barely" (20-30 isn't barely) make more HP bu it doesn't weigh as much as a locomotive like the 5th gen does.
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Old 07-05-2013, 06:22 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by buckeyemike View Post
This thread is such a circle jerk. I know there are a lot of you with deep Camaro roots that like the 4th gen, but that catfish isn't respected by anyone else. It's ugly, the interior looks like garbage, it isn't a headturner at all, and the fastest one barely makes more horsepower than the current V6's, AND it handles like crap.
It is unrealistic to evaluate cars built when you were in grade school against today's "standards" (which I could say focus too much on appearances inside and out - and people still complain).

Nor do I see where your "handles like crap" comment is coming from, unless your own driving experience was in one with bad shocks and suspension bushings well past their prime. The earlier car having a different "feel" (mostly a stick axle vs IRS thing) does not necessarily mean that it's poor or grossly inferior. Just different. I've driven a 4th gen (Firebird, actually) a few times, quite possibly harder as far as cornering/handling is concerned than you've ever driven anything.

Rear-of-engine access, Optispark, and brake hop in some years, I'll give you as being 4th gen weaknesses.


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They did the right thing in making the new Z28 a Boss killer and making it a track focused car.
At least you got this part right. ( if you're old enough).


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Old 07-05-2013, 06:46 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by buckeyemike View Post
This thread is such a circle jerk. I know there are a lot of you with deep Camaro roots that like the 4th gen, but that catfish isn't respected by anyone else. It's ugly, the interior looks like garbage, it isn't a headturner at all, and the fastest one barely makes more horsepower than the current V6's, AND it handles like crap.

They did the right thing in making the new Z28 a Boss killer and making it a track focused car.
I always feel guilty voicing this opinion in muscle car circles. 4th gens were just NOT where it was at for me. I've seen many that were absolute beasts but they never appealed to me at all. I always wanted older muscle cars when I was young.
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Old 07-05-2013, 07:04 AM   #107
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Someone say T-Top?!
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Old 07-05-2013, 08:05 AM   #108
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I'd take in a 98-02 for a garage project anytime.
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Old 07-05-2013, 08:22 AM   #109
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I don't think there is anything wrong with people not preferring 4th gens. I like Camaros of all years, but I'm not a big fan of the 1st or 2nd gens for instance. That doesn't mean I have disdain for them, though.

Further, as each new generation comes out, the previous generation (or two) starts getting a stigma. This has already happened with the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gens. While I'm only 30, I still remember the tail end of people laughing at 2nd gens as being redneck rides. Now they're coveted.

3rd gens had this stigma while the 4th gens were new, but they're now becoming "popular" again. I say popular loosely, though, in the sense that more and more of them are being built with quality and those who dreamed of them when young can now buy/build mint examples.

What this means is now the 4th gens get the frowns. That's fine and all, but just remember, those of you who own 5th gens will get the same treatment in the future -- especially those with a V6.

Now, since a couple people want to sling mud about the 4th gen V8's having the same power as 5th gen V6's... I kind of like that you think that. But, because this is a Camaro site and I love all Camaros, it's important to note that your V6 lacks a LOT of torque compared to the LS1. Further, while numbers on paper showed the Camaro making 25hp less than the equivalent Corvette, it was in actuality like it is today -- a LS1 in a Camaro made the same power as a LS1 in a Corvette just as the LS3 in the Camaro makes the same power as the LS3 in the Corvette. Don't forget the significant weight difference.

I don't want to turn this into a pissing match, but it is important for the new Camaro "fans" to understand the true intricacies rather than simply infer things that aren't true. To be honest, a V6 4th gen would be a drivers race with a V6 5th gen. It's just the way it is as the tracks do not lie.
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Old 07-05-2013, 09:26 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demonspeed View Post
I don't think there is anything wrong with people not preferring 4th gens. I like Camaros of all years, but I'm not a big fan of the 1st or 2nd gens for instance. That doesn't mean I have disdain for them, though.
This attitude, precisely.


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Old 07-05-2013, 10:05 AM   #111
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T tops are one of the coolest things, ever. I wish my 3rd gen had them, but im currently saving for a 2nd gen, and theres no way im buying one without T tops! I guess I don't get why they cant do t tops on the 5th gens, could anyone fill me in?
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Old 07-05-2013, 10:59 AM   #112
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Could be Chevy balked at the expense of developing and crash-certifying a third and distinctly different structural configuration, if they could not predict enough benefit in terms of additional sales.


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Old 07-05-2013, 11:11 AM   #113
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T tops are one of the coolest things, ever. I wish my 3rd gen had them, but im currently saving for a 2nd gen, and theres no way im buying one without T tops! I guess I don't get why they cant do t tops on the 5th gens, could anyone fill me in?
You'll have to look earlier in the thread, that was answered. It's because of the structure of the 5th Gens. Who knows if GM will ever recreate a t-top or just a removable roof like the Corvette. I think it has the potential to be amazing nonetheless.
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Old 07-05-2013, 11:43 AM   #114
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I would rather have the removable top like the Vette, But it will never happen..
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Old 07-05-2013, 11:46 AM   #115
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Ok, posted many times before because simply............T-tops are loved by a lot of F-body fans.

First of all, for roof crush, FMVSS 216, convertibles are exempt. The Targa, or a roof similar to the one piece roof used on the Corvette makes it a convertible by the legal definition. Also by the legal definition, convertibles are exempted from FMVSS 216.

T-tops, on the other hand, do NOT get this exemption and must be tested as a coupe and meet all the standards a car with a full structural must meet. The structure that runs over the roof and joins the top of the windshield header to the top of the b-pillar is missing on a T-top car.

It's not to say you can't. You can do anything if you have enough $ and mass to add that structure back in. I'm just pretty sure no one would like the resulting appearance. It would be far from the sleek look of the earlier cars.

There is a reason why no one has T-tops in the US market right now. It's not like others are doing it and GM is choosing not to. There isn't anyone doing it for the structural reasons outlined above.

I wouldn't say "never" or "impossible" but it would be really, really, really hard to do.

Oh and there is that nasty water leak problem T-tops provide. Again, sealing is better in the last 10 years so that can like be overcome with a more robust design.
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Old 07-05-2013, 01:45 PM   #116
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I know there are a lot of you with deep Camaro roots that like the 4th gen, but that catfish isn't respected by anyone else. It's ugly and the interior looks like garbage. It isn't a headturner at all.
Years ago I owned a succession of GM cars, including a '62 'vette, '69 SS396 Chevelle, '70-1/2 Z/28, '64 "vette coupe, and a '76 Trans Am. The lack of horsepower turned me off on the 3rd gen Camaros, but it was the awful "catfish" looks of the 4th gen Camaro that made me buy Ford for the first time ever (a '96 Mustang Cobra in the one-year-only color-shifting mystic paint). I have since added an '01 Mustang Cobra and an '08 GT500 to my garage. But the fabulous 5th gen Camaro ZL1 brought me back to GM.
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Old 07-05-2013, 01:58 PM   #117
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It is unrealistic to evaluate cars built when you were in grade school against today's "standards" (which I could say focus too much on appearances inside and out - and people still complain).

Nor do I see where your "handles like crap" comment is coming from, unless your own driving experience was in one with bad shocks and suspension bushings well past their prime. The earlier car having a different "feel" (mostly a stick axle vs IRS thing) does not necessarily mean that it's poor or grossly inferior. Just different. I've driven a 4th gen (Firebird, actually) a few times, quite possibly harder as far as cornering/handling is concerned than you've ever driven anything.

Rear-of-engine access, Optispark, and brake hop in some years, I'll give you as being 4th gen weaknesses.



At least you got this part right. ( if you're old enough).


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I'm only 12 whats a car.

In all seriousness though, that car is not taken seriously. It IS a great beater for sure, definitely worth having to slay tires but it lacks refinement. Even the 1st and 2nd gen Camaros had that, the later models fell the way of literally every other American car in the late 80's early 90's and became a plastic heap.
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Old 07-05-2013, 02:26 PM   #118
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1st and 2nd gens had refinement? That's a new one to me. I think what you're offering is anecdotal rather than factual -- especially when taken in the context of the other vehicles of the same period.
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Old 07-05-2013, 04:18 PM   #119
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In all seriousness though, that car is not taken seriously. It IS a great beater for sure, definitely worth having to slay tires but it lacks refinement.
Relative to today, that may be true. But relative to its time, and particularly with regard to handling, no. Either it or its 4th gen Firebird cousin basically owned at least two of SCCA's autocross classes, autocross being as intense of a yardstick by which to measure handling as anything I can think of. Set up for autocross to the same class rules as everybody else, even the 3rd gens can and do still win at the National level.

Sam Strano (multi-time SCCA National autocross champion, who I know to speak to) and at least one other guy who open-tracks his would take issue with your disrespect of the 4th gen chassis's handling as much as I did. And those two guys - people I know from CamaroZ28, FRRAX, and other forums - rarely seem to agree with each other on much.

And you can always swap out the powertrain for something a bit stouter if you're all that unhappy with the SBC. That path is pretty well defined.



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Old 07-05-2013, 09:22 PM   #120
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...dude, your words are callous and reckless Mike...circle jerk...really.....go somewhere else and stir up crap....
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Old 07-06-2013, 01:26 PM   #121
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I would rather have the removable top like the Vette, But it will never happen..
I'll take a removable roof too, never say never. If the demand was there, it could be a possibility in the 7th Gen.
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Old 07-06-2013, 02:20 PM   #122
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I actually like the LS1 4th gens.

You can't compare it to the 5th gens because the design is old, GM planned on killing the Camaro off so I doubt the did as good a job on the design as they should have and it was made in a different era.
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:12 PM   #123
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GM did not plan on killing anything off. Really? Are you kidding? I do not think so. The F body line is dead, and it burdens my soul. It died in 2002. Why? I don't wan't to get into the philosophy or reason, but in a microcosim look at what happened with big business, the financial collapse, and bailouts. The problem that occured at the time of demise of the Camaro <and Firebird, with the subsequent death of the Pontiac Division> runs far deeper than your premisie Hobbs. The lineage would have prospered and been in state today if not for a perfect storm occuring. The Camaro died for a lack of support, lack of vision, unwilingness to change, not meeting consumers wants, and the dropping sales within a Corporation that began to see the light of sliding profit and it's inveitable downturn due to not keeping it's eye on the ball,
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:20 PM   #124
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Motor trends Wide open throttle episode concerning the Z/28
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:02 PM   #125
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Motor trends Wide open throttle episode concerning the Z/28
Already posted. This car will be amazing for those "track" only drivers. The '14 Z/28 isn't for everybody. Looking forward to a Z28 when and if it'll ever be released not a Z/28. 2nd-4th Gen Z28s will be hard for GM not to eventually make on future models the same way the 1st Gen Z/28 is being influenced by the 2014 Z/28.
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