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Old 03-19-2013, 02:37 PM   #126
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Oh... I feel you are saying "Shut up and eat your broccoli".... LOL OK we all need to shut our pie holes and "go with the flow"...

"Only dead fish go with the flow"....
Broccoli is good. Especially with american cheese.
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:23 PM   #127
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I think concentrating on reducing weight is a good thing. It will help improve performance, even in cars that aren't performance oriented.
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:50 PM   #128
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Broccoli is good. Especially with american cheese.
Even live fish go with the flow, sooner or later...you know what happens to one's that fight the flow all the way, like the salmon...lol...
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:10 PM   #129
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Weight reduction is paramount. Look at our competitors, they can use smaller engines to power their vehicles b/c they are far lighter on average vs. competitive GM vehicles. Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Nissan. Most lighter than GM, all crushing GM in power to weight ratio and fuel economy.

Why would anyone pay 25K for a Malibu Eco to get 37 MPG highway when they can buy a base Nissan Altima 2.5S for under 24K and get 38 MPG highway?
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:20 PM   #130
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Weight reduction is paramount. Look at our competitors, they can use smaller engines to power their vehicles b/c they are far lighter on average vs. competitive GM vehicles. Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Nissan. Most lighter than GM, all crushing GM in power to weight ratio and fuel economy.

Why would anyone pay 25K for a Malibu Eco to get 37 MPG highway when they can buy a base Nissan Altima 2.5S for under 24K and get 38 MPG highway?
Maybe so but the last time I rode in a Toyota Corrola when you shut the door it sounded like you were beating on the side of a garbage can, not a solid thunk you get with most American cars.
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:31 PM   #131
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Maybe so but the last time I rode in a Toyota Corrola when you shut the door it sounded like you were beating on the side of a garbage can, not a solid thunk you get with most American cars.
but somehow they manage to outsell everyone w/ those garbage cans though, eh?
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:41 PM   #132
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but somehow they manage to outsell everyone w/ those garbage cans though, eh?
Not to me though.....
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:44 PM   #133
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reading this thread and all I can say is; if they make the 6th as bad ass in the looks department with a little more umph and a little less weight I am a happy owner! bring it on! it has gotta have the right attitude or no one will buy it. just like if the current Gen looked generic like the Mustang it would not have took back a large part of the market!
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:38 PM   #134
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but somehow they manage to outsell everyone w/ those garbage cans though, eh?
There is a segment (unfortunately a growing one) of car buyers who have little knowledge of what they are looking and no desire to have any clue what they are looking at. That is Toyota's base.

In short, the Corolla buyer is the reason the Corolla sells, not the merits of the Corolla itself, which became the car world's technological relic years ago after the Impala received the 3.6L/6-speed combo.
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:44 PM   #135
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but somehow they manage to outsell everyone w/ those garbage cans though, eh?
Impression is reality................................but it doesn't change the truth.

People still think if you buy a Toyota you are buying a higher quality car. Data says otherwise if you look at JD Power for example. But if you believe it to be true then it's true.
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:21 PM   #136
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That not news to me, I was only stating the fact that Toyota outsells us. I know that Cruze is a superior product to Corolla in almost every conceivable way, but it obviously doesn't mean anything if the public is lead to believe otherwise.
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:51 PM   #137
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15 percent weight reduction with an LF3?. Like it or not, that's a game changer.
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:21 PM   #138
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Am I the only one that likes big, heavy cars? After all, it is what American cars are known for. They look menacing, comfy to ride, and feel very secure, even in a Camaro or any other muscle car for that matter.
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:32 PM   #139
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Am I the only one that likes big, heavy cars? After all, it is what American cars are known for. They look menacing, comfy to ride, and feel very secure, even in a Camaro or any other muscle car for that matter.
I've always liked cars that felt like they had some "heft" to them...I sure miss my '67 Impala...lol...

Anyways, I don't think even if it turns out to be 15% off these Camaro's weight now, that they will be that small...I've had mine next to many Gen1s...and was surprised how big mine was in comparison.....I think the next Gen will still be plenty big enough...
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:56 PM   #140
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....GM is taking the initiative for cleaner, more fuel efficient cars, with advanced technology, and is welcoming the Federal Government to join them in a National initiative....go to GM authority and read about it....
Does anyone else find this quote absurdly ironic?
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:01 PM   #141
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Does anyone else find this quote absurdly ironic?
For sure....Probably code-speak for trying to keep the industry viable...lol
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:42 PM   #142
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Seems as the autoignition temperature of magnesium ribbon is approximately 473 °C (746 K; 883 °F) good luck getting it to burn in anything being used in vehicle applications. The powered or shaved form is much easier to burn, but that's not what's being used here.
You do realize that magnesium will burn at the same temperature regardless of whether it is a powder, a ribbon, a brick, a transmission case, or a 1/4 scale replica of R2-D2?

FYI, a candle burns at 1000 °C, which is more than enough to get magnesium started.

The only thing that extra mass gives you is it can dissipate a small heat source like a candle, which prevents it from igniting, as the large mass takes a large heat source to get it hot enough (swap in a gasoline fire, or oil fire instead of a candle and you have a large source).

However, a magnesium engine block is already warmed up by the running engine, and if you have certain engine failures or lose oil pressure, the friction of the moving parts is more than enough to ignite the block. There is a history of this in the old VW Beetle boxer engine, which was made from a magnesium alloy.

Back when they were common, firefighters were offered training on how to fight a Beetle fire, because magnesium reacts with water forming magnesium oxide and hydrogen and so using a fire hose on the beetle could create a hydrogen cloud which essentially explodes. A CO2 fire extinguisher is also useless on a Beetle fire because it will readily burn in a CO2 atmosphere, forming magnesium oxide and carbon. The way they said to deal with a Beetle engine fire was to shovel dirt on it to snuff it out.

Usually, once going the firefighters would just stand back and allow the car to be consumed by the fire.

If you guys a big fans of magnesium bodied cars, I suggest you look up the F1 racing Honda RA302, which crashed in lap 2 of the 1968 French Gran Prix and the body caught fire and could not be extinguished.

Magnesium is not to be trifled with.

I'm not looking forward to paying a lot more money for a car that doesn't save as much money in fuel as the additional cost to buy, plus is made from a very flammable element that makes it even less safe.
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:46 PM   #143
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I'm confused....I thought they referred to their new Aluminum welding procedure...making aluminum the near-term "super material" for weight savings...why the focus on magnesium in here?
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:46 PM   #144
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Boy sure love the magnesium cradle in the Z06. Haven't seen one burst into flames yet, though.
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:51 PM   #145
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Does anyone else find this quote absurdly ironic?
...Ok Capitain, spell it out....where is the irony? Inquiring minds wanna know....
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:56 PM   #146
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I'm confused....I thought they referred to their new Aluminum welding procedure...making aluminum the near-term "super material" for weight savings...why the focus on magnesium in here?
Magnesium is even lighter than aluminium. By a bunch.

But even aluminium costs a big bunch more than steel.

Waiting for unobtanium to reach a higher threshold for usage driving cost even lower.
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:58 PM   #147
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Magnesium is even lighter than aluminium. By a bunch.

But even aluminium costs a big bunch more than steel.

Waiting for unobtanium to reach a higher threshold for usage driving cost even lower.
Is magnesium even as malleable as aluminum for stamping? And aluminum wins no awards in that respect, either...
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Old 03-20-2013, 09:05 PM   #148
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Is magnesium even as malleable as aluminum for stamping? And aluminum wins no awards in that respect, either...
All aluminum already has magnesium in it...The higher the percent of magnesium, the lighter and stronger aluminum becomes....Depending on the thickness at some point high mag content aluminum can't be bent...It will be significantly stronger and lighter, but more brittle....
Cheap, mushy aluminum won't stamp or bend with any quality, either...It's a balancing act...Aircraft alumunum is high quality, hi-grade aluminum...
...Anything can be done, just the process requires more engineering...
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Old 03-20-2013, 09:05 PM   #149
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I'm not looking forward to paying a lot more money for a car that doesn't save as much money in fuel as the additional cost to buy, plus is made from a very flammable element that makes it even less safe.
...then I guess you are out, and then we will be for the better if you find a happier place, no?
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Old 03-20-2013, 09:49 PM   #150
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All aluminum already has magnesium in it...The higher the percent of magnesium, the lighter and stronger aluminum becomes....Depending on the thickness at some point high mag content aluminum can't be bent...It will be significantly stronger and lighter, but more brittle....
Cheap, mushy aluminum won't stamp or bend with any quality, either...It's a balancing act...Aircraft alumunum is high quality, hi-grade aluminum...
...Anything can be done, just the process requires more engineering...
Point taken.

I've been reading up (what I can in the past 45 minutes). Apparently, you can add rare earth metals into the alloy formula, and this changes the properties of (among other things) the ignition temperature of the material. Since Al-Mg alloys don't burn at the same temperatures as pure Mg to begin with...Alloys with the intent of high-temperature applications can be formed by using this technique.

The Corvette's Mg engine cradle is made out of a special alloy; AE44. And it caught some press in the engineering community for it's ability to perform in high-temperature situations. Was the first application of its kind, apparently.

Nothing's perfect, obviously. Imagine if the electric car had taken off in the early 1900s and we were driving developed versions of them today....and then someone came along and suggested we switch to this cheap, and high-energy liquid fuel: "Gas-O-Leen"....I imagine there'd have been an uproar over endangering the driving public by making them drive around with a flammable/combustable/explosive material sloshing around in tanks underneath the cars.

With all that said: I look forward to seeing how GM intends to carry out this goal of 15% weight reduction. No doubt they've done some research on the subject to back up the number (or at least come close) with results. I've never heard them be so specific without knowing they can do it, first.

If it happens to be Mg...Hey - as long as it won't rust when the paint's chipped after years of driving, count me in.
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