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Old 02-08-2013, 08:45 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM View Post
No, the whole point is making the Camaro as good as it can be, not fiddling around trying to make it an all-around car, or trying to impress some dillweed who opposes V8's for "ethical reasons".

I'm sure there are people who'd like a station-wagon variant also, and probably another group that would love a Camaro pick-up. Should Chevy build their car too? After all, no one is forced to buy any particular variation, so car makers should manufacture every dumbass idea that crosses their mind. What could go wrong?

A 4 cylinder isn't needed or wanted. God only knows why you clowns keep zealously attacking anyone who points that out.
Whos doing the attacking?? I don't see attacking from the ones simply trying to point out why a T4 could be a good thing, or from those who try to point out that a T4 can actually be fun to drive.

Anyways...the comment is laughable at best. The point is making the Camaro "as good as it can be"....and your right. So WTH does adding a T4 to the line-up do to threaten that? I see absolutely no reason whatsoever why the next gen Camaro on Alpha with the LT1 V8 won't easily surpass the current car in performance...straight line and in the twisties. You seem to think that adding a 4-cylinder is somehow going to affect the performance of the V8 version....like GM is just going to somehow "water down" the name altogether.

"Well, they are adding a 4 cylinder. Guess Chevy just doesn't care about real enthusiasts anymore." Thats what you seem to be saying.

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His point is that you can't compare a heavily modded turbo 4 to a stock V8 in one sentence ("almost L99 power") and then tell the man he can't bring up the fact that the V8 has a warranty in the next sentence.

If you want L99 power, then get an L99 and a free warranty with it.
I don't think you got my point either. I said it before...I'll say it again. I posted that simply to show what could be done simply with a tune and nothing else. A real car guy might see those numbers and go "dang thats pretty good!" A close-minded person goes "well...A V8 will do that and still have a warranty". Don't make it out to be more than what it is. I did not try to imply that someone should just buy the T4, tune it, and be done instead of buying a V8.

Again, yes the warranty will be toast. Well big surprise there. How many of us here don't mod at all? If you are moding, you are risking your warranty. Nuff said.

Holy cow...I can't wait to see how mad some of you go when this car with the T4 is actually released.
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:09 PM   #77
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....LOL, I guess,.... however the Corporate 4 turbo will get great fuel economy, and will be a nice base engine despite moronic commentary such as yours...., just sayin....
I'm sure it gets great fuel economy, who is questioning that? Oh yea, that's right you didn't read the thread. Well as one of the resident V8 loving morons on this thread I have decided there is no percentage in arguing with people who want green Camaros, turbo 4 Camaros, Diesel Camaros, it's all superior to V8s. I'm not fighting the future anymore. Just waiting for the Kia hamsters to be in a Camaro ad!
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:38 PM   #78
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....wake up and smell the GOV. The shit is gettin' real as in a not to distant past phrase suggests..., look I want 8's forever, truth is it ain't happen', the modern DI motors... 4 or 6's, with forced induction will take over, not my decision. There will be the next Gen 5 8 cyl family, but at a premium,... sorry, but even though the climate is beyond turning around, the GOV will do it's best to further complicate our issues and pass the price down to the consumer. Welcome to the 21st century.
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:44 PM   #79
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Seriously though, is it the number of cylinders or the performance?

Balanced handling, outstanding braking, torque? I have them all in a 3.0 Supercharged car that will run with an SS. My 2.0T Sky Redline? With the GMPP calibration it would also run with an SS (Woodward Dream Cruise, don't ask).

Muscle doesn't mean cylinders in the new world.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:00 PM   #80
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Folks, as they say, it's baked in the cake..the new motors are going to rock, it's the change over factor that have the most vocal indualvistalic opponists concered about change....accept, not fear it..., why the worry?
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:10 PM   #81
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If 4 cylinders are what we have to do, what about 4 cylinder Vettes? Is it impossible to make a Turbo V8? Everyone lauds the power of turbo 4 and turbo 6--do they not have Turbo V8's? Do the mighty turbo 4s outperform turbo V8s?!

Will we see a 4 banger Vette? People say it won't effect Camaro negatively, will it affect Corvette?
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:37 PM   #82
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...almost every time somebody makes some bizzare argument or contary comment about Z/28, ZL1, Vette's, turbo 4 or 6's, next generation whatever, its usually an insecure owner of a LS3, for whatever reason...it's gettin old.....
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:55 PM   #83
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...almost every time somebody makes some bizzare argument or contary comment about Z/28, ZL1, Vette's, turbo 4 or 6's, next generation whatever, its usually an insecure owner of a LS3, for whatever reason...it's gettin old.....
Is it possible for you to have a discussion with someone who disagrees with you without being insulting pal, now THAT is what is old. I'm on a Camaro enthusiast site last I checked. So me liking an LS3 engine shouldn't get me called names. I didn't call you one so have some common courtesy.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:01 PM   #84
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...Ok, Pal is a reach for first introductions on your part don't you think? I'm guessing but, 4 cylinder turbo performance engines have been around probably longer that you have been alive and have made impressive numbers. What's the issue?
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:16 PM   #85
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....guys, the turbo 4 and 6 are going to be standard Corporate motors, 8's will be a premium, read GmAuthority or GmInsider for info....they are coming to a neighborhood near you, soon, and across all lines. CAFE and GOV reg's are squeezing 8"s, they will be available, but at a premium going forward. Especially high performance 8's. Read, and get informed.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:22 PM   #86
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I'm not against them. (I'm pushing 50 so I guess they are older than me.)
I'm FOR V8s. And I am for Camaros being what they are. Like Vettes being what they are. A Turbo Cobalt by the way is a great car, my tuner drives one and its kick ass. But there is a thing that is the Essence (in my opinion, and I'm nobody) that is Camaro. I'm just a fan, a faceless guy who wanted the car he lusted after since grade school. (Early '70's) if it had returned as a econo green version of itself I probably wouldn't have bought it. Hyundai makes a pretty good pony car that was compared favorably to the 2010 Camaro and 2009 mustang. Didn't sell as well. I'm not trying to diss other engines in other applications, just saying in my opinion a Camaro has to be different than a Camry or a Malibu. By the way my name is Gordon.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:35 PM   #87
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If its a done deal then this depresses the hell out of me.
I liked the fact that with a Camaro that kind of power and sound was available at a price a normal Joe-six pack could afford.

I can't drop Premium prices like 60 grand for a ZL1.
If the Muscle part of muscle cars are beyond the reach of normal guys they will be gone again. Rich people will buy Mercedes, BMW, Lexus or Audi.
And the 2nd coming of muscle cars will fade like the first. ( and guys like me will be stuck driving electric AMC Pacers!)
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:37 PM   #88
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Whos doing the attacking?? I don't see attacking from the ones simply trying to point out why a T4 could be a good thing, or from those who try to point out that a T4 can actually be fun to drive.

Anyways...the comment is laughable at best. The point is making the Camaro "as good as it can be"....and your right. So WTH does adding a T4 to the line-up do to threaten that? I see absolutely no reason whatsoever why the next gen Camaro on Alpha with the LT1 V8 won't easily surpass the current car in performance...straight line and in the twisties. You seem to think that adding a 4-cylinder is somehow going to affect the performance of the V8 version....like GM is just going to somehow "water down" the name altogether.

"Well, they are adding a 4 cylinder. Guess Chevy just doesn't care about real enthusiasts anymore." Thats what you seem to be saying.
A 4 cylinder was on nobodies wish list for the 6th gen. Lighter, better interior, better handling, more power. That's what people asked for. Not better fuel efficiency.

Performance is what made this car such a great seller to begin with. It sure as hell wasn't fuel efficiency. So yeah, I'd like GM to listen to their customers and improve the performance of the car, not screw around trying to make a 4 cylinder pony car no one will want.

And don't make the other argument about CAFE. The fuel efficiency is averaged across the fleet. A marginally more efficient Camaro won't hold a candle to an Eco Cruze sale. So sell people who want fuel efficiency Eco Cruze's, and leave the Camaros alone. Both sets of customers will be much happier.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:42 PM   #89
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....guys, the turbo 4 and 6 are going to be standard Corporate motors, 8's will be a premium, read GmAuthority or GmInsider for info....they are coming to a neighborhood near you, soon, and across all lines. CAFE and GOV reg's are squeezing 8"s, they will be available, but at a premium going forward. Especially high performance 8's. Read, and get informed.
And as a buyer, I don't have to like whatever GM sells. If GM decides to shaft performance car enthusiasts, then I'll just go buy a different car. It's really that simple.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:48 PM   #90
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And as a buyer, I don't have to like whatever GM sells. If GM decides to shaft performance car enthusiasts, then I'll just go buy a different car. It's really that simple.
This. If I can't get or can't afford what I want, then GM is dead to me.
This is only my opinion though, you guys drive what you want.
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Old 02-09-2013, 05:32 AM   #91
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It's really funny how this whole thing is so blown out of proportion about something nobody really knows. Take a look at the import/compact side. We got guys who are shoving V8 naturally-aspirated into cars only a few years ago would have been laughed at. These are cars that want the reliability and availability of V8 power in a lighter chassis. They understand the math of power:weight BUT at the same time, they aren't knocking each other for what's under the hood. I'm from that camp. I also respect the "essence" of what a muscle car is. That's why I also have and love my SS with the LS3. It is what it is. No replacement for displacement and import guys know that. Power-adders such as turbos and supercharges will give any engine the feel of bigger displacement. It's all in the math. Anyway, stop getting butt-hurt on what someone's opinion is or something nobody on here has a direct influence on a business decision. Love your Camaro. I love mine, and I love cars and engines and being an underdog.
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Old 02-09-2013, 06:34 AM   #92
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its all just numbers..
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Old 02-09-2013, 08:45 AM   #93
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Why would anyone want a 4 cyl camaro?? Sounds a bit lame.
What's so cool about a V8 besides the fact that you can brag about it being a V8?

GM has already made production inline 4 cylinders for production cars that make 145 bhp per liter. A Camaro 1SS makes less than 70 bhp per liter. I'm sorry but I read a lot of fashion statements instead of car guy concerns in these threads
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Old 02-09-2013, 09:21 AM   #94
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And as a buyer, I don't have to like whatever GM sells. If GM decides to shaft performance car enthusiasts, then I'll just go buy a different car. It's really that simple.
But it WON"T JUST BE GM. It will be everyone.

Yes rich people will go buy premium German they do now. That won't change. But those premium German brands will ultimately have to meet the same CAFE standards too.

The issue for me isn't whether or not there will be a 4 cylinder. And for those questioning a 4 cylinder in a Camaro?

If you can get the performance you might just see it.

If all a Camaro is to you is a "thing" that happens to have 8 cylinders then you will likely be dissapointed in 2025.

But here is the deal. In order to AVERAGE 54.5 under the new footprint guidelines AND have a V8 there will have to be economical choices as well. Putting the 2.5L 4 cylinder in a Camaro is a great choice for some people. Some people want a more stylish car that is economical, easy to use, park drive etc. That is the base engine in the ATS and it drives just fine (not for a Cadillac though )

Also consider this. Chevrolet doesn't have a coupe other than the Camaro. I won't count the Corvette as it is a different animal. So Chevrolet has to get the Camaro to compete with Accord and Altima coupes. So no one should be worried about adding a 4 cyclinder to the Camaro.

So my position is simply this. If it handles, brakes and steer and goes very fast when I put my right foot down on the right pedal...................I don't care how many cylinders are there.

FUTURE SPOILER ALERT - at some point we will be discussing how we can't drive our perforamnce cars when gas is $10 per gallon. Look at the projections for the Chinese auto market lately? 30 million units by early next decade. India? Just barely getting an automobile market. Statistics show that well over half of the buyers in China and India are first time buyers. That is telling. And they will all want oil.

2nd FUTURE SPOILER ALERT - at some point this conversation will be had about eliminating gasoline or diesel and only having electric propulsion (EVs and Fuel Cells are coming). And EVs can be pretty fun to drive as well.
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Old 02-09-2013, 09:45 AM   #95
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The problem that most of the close minded folks who think only a v8 belongs in the Camaro is that they don't realize that if the Camaro was v8 only there would not be enough business justification for the vehicle to exist. Without the v6, there would be no Camaro. Period.

Furthermore, my 1994 Camaro was a v6 when I bought it. I'm now one of the most passionate Camaro enthusiasts you'll meet. I run a Michigan-based Camaro and Firebird website with over 2300 members, I host a 300+ Camaro and Firebird specific car show every year, go to a ton of shows through the "car show season" in Michigan, registered on basically every Camaro forum on the internet, etc. Because of my '94 Camaro v6, I am likewise passionate about General Motors in general which made me work extra hard to get a job at General Motors world headquarters in Detroit. I eat, breathe, sleep GM and Camaro. I cannot imagine NOT owning at least one Camaro now for the rest of my life... And all that because of a v6...

So when I found out I could afford a 5th gen if I went with the base, 1LS model... Yeah, I didn't hesitate.
Burn!!!
Someone get that guy some ice!

This should be an auto response to the V6 haters out there.

"Your car wouldn't exist if it weren't for my car"

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Old 02-09-2013, 10:20 AM   #96
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The way people talk about the 4-cylinder possibilities, it sounds like GM is taking something away. It's a new option added to the mix. How could more options be bad news? All this does is give the people who want a Camaro a Camaro. Not everyone can afford your V8s.
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:07 AM   #97
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Burn!!!
Someone get that guy some ice!

This should be an auto response to the V6 haters out there.

"Your car wouldn't exist if it weren't for my car"

That's silly. Your v6 wouldn't exist without a V8 either. It would have just been a Monsa.
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:08 AM   #98
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But there is a thing that is the Essence (in my opinion, and I'm nobody) that is Camaro. I'm just a fan, a faceless guy who wanted the car he lusted after since grade school. (Early '70's)
If you think that the essence of a Camaro is V8 only, you're forgetting that the 1st gen cars were saddled with 1-barrel carb'ed inline sixxes that were good for making noise (and little else) above 3500 rpm.

Remember that the Camaro originally came in response to Ford's Mustang, the 6 cylinder versions of which have been roundly criticized as being "secretary's cars".

Nobody is trying to say that your vision of "Camaro essence" is wrong, or that you aren't entitled to it. Only that the "Camaro essence" has been and still is somewhat wider than just V8's and a dual exhaust rumble.


Hey, I like V8's too. I've owned several V8 cars, still have one, and I could probably assemble two or three V8 engines just scrounging around in the garage for parts.

Actually, I like short-stroke high revving V8's the best. I'm going to stick my neck out a bit and guess that those engines wouldn't quite fit your definition of "Camaro essence", either. The original Z/28 with its 302 CID engine notwithstanding. You'd be the die-hard big-block fan, right?


Quote:
econo green
Word like that are loaded with way too much association to outright opposition to performance. It's not nearly as true now as it was 30 or 40 years ago, and using them to ridicule opinions that differ from your own is just a needless distraction.


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Old 02-09-2013, 11:17 AM   #99
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But it WON"T JUST BE GM. It will be everyone.

Yes rich people will go buy premium German they do now. That won't change. But those premium German brands will ultimately have to meet the same CAFE standards too.

The issue for me isn't whether or not there will be a 4 cylinder. And for those questioning a 4 cylinder in a Camaro?

If you can get the performance you might just see it.

If all a Camaro is to you is a "thing" that happens to have 8 cylinders then you will likely be dissapointed in 2025.

But here is the deal. In order to AVERAGE 54.5 under the new footprint guidelines AND have a V8 there will have to be economical choices as well. Putting the 2.5L 4 cylinder in a Camaro is a great choice for some people. Some people want a more stylish car that is economical, easy to use, park drive etc. That is the base engine in the ATS and it drives just fine (not for a Cadillac though )

Also consider this. Chevrolet doesn't have a coupe other than the Camaro. I won't count the Corvette as it is a different animal. So Chevrolet has to get the Camaro to compete with Accord and Altima coupes. So no one should be worried about adding a 4 cyclinder to the Camaro.

So my position is simply this. If it handles, brakes and steer and goes very fast when I put my right foot down on the right pedal...................I don't care how many cylinders are there.

FUTURE SPOILER ALERT - at some point we will be discussing how we can't drive our perforamnce cars when gas is $10 per gallon. Look at the projections for the Chinese auto market lately? 30 million units by early next decade. India? Just barely getting an automobile market. Statistics show that well over half of the buyers in China and India are first time buyers. That is telling. And they will all want oil.

2nd FUTURE SPOILER ALERT - at some point this conversation will be had about eliminating gasoline or diesel and only having electric propulsion (EVs and Fuel Cells are coming). And EVs can be pretty fun to drive as well.
If Camaros are going to be the new Honda accord I don't want one. If they are going to be Altimas-- No. EV's can be pretty fun? What site are we on? You are HOPING for a prius Camaro? You can buy a Leaf or Prius right now! Why advocate for a Camaro to be one? You guys always claim V8 owners are attacking V6rs. All I see is attacks against anyone who even states they like V8's. Maybe this forum is done for me and I just need to find one where one is not ridiculed for liking LS3 and LS7 engines.
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:39 AM   #100
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If Camaros are going to be the new Honda accord I don't want one. If they are going to be Altimas-- No. EV's can be pretty fun? What site are we on? You are HOPING for a prius Camaro? You can buy a Leaf or Prius right now! Why advocate for a Camaro to be one? You guys always claim V8 owners are attacking V6rs. All I see is attacks against anyone who even states they like V8's. Maybe this forum is done for me and I just need to find one where one is not ridiculed for liking LS3 and LS7 engines.
Don't despair...for some reason if you don't want a 4 cylinder car to be added to the Camaro line, you're a "hater"....I see it the opposite way, no 4cyl equals Camaro "lover"...Get your beloved 4-cylinder in some other make and model of car that won't be associated with what made these Camaros something special...
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