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Old 02-16-2013, 06:15 AM   #290
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That's a really bogus comparison. The 82 V8 was a complete POS because the EPA and NHTSA came along with all their CAFE and "smog" standards 10 years earlier, and it took the car companies another 10 years to get back to where they were when it all started.

If you think we shoud all go back to driving cars for the with power like that of cars 20 years ago (taking 20 years to get back to current power), then CAFE is your ticket.

I think many of the people here must have been born in the mid-late 80's and came of driving age in the late 90's or early 2000's, and completly missed the dreck we had in the mid 70's and 80's. They have NO CLUE how bad CAFE was for performance, so they don't know enough to oppose it.
Was only pointing out to those that are implying the Camaro is and has been so awesome that you couldn't have a 4 cylinder engine in it. It has had a 4 cylinder and it has been a crappy performing car.

Allllllll I was saying is that if you put the 2.5L in the car it would likely perform better than the 82 POS powered Camaro.

Anything else you are pulling from my post is you jumping to an incorrect conclusion.

But lets just ask, since you seam to want this to be about government intervention in our lives and not just "why would anyone want a 4 cylinder in a Camaro".

At what point should the government not regulate our transportation? Should you be required to have lights to drive more safely and so others can see you? (FMVSS regulation) Should you have mirrors in order to safely opperate your vehicle and not damage others? (FMVSS regulation) Should you have brakes to safely stop and an acclerator that doesn't stick? (FMVSS regulations). Should you have the confidence that the Chinese should be able come here and sell whatever hooptie mobile they want with disregard to basic automotive safety? Or should it just be a blanking free for all and you can drive whatever the hell you want because it's a free market? How about loads on big trucks? Should they be required to meet certain safety regulations so you can be safe? (Gov. Regs). Should there be a speed limit?

Where is that line?

And don't jump to conclusions on my post, just comment on if truly believe it should be a wild west free for all on the roads.
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Old 02-16-2013, 07:05 AM   #291
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hello ,
welcome to you on this forum site.
I have transport business having four toyota which are six yr old, now i want to change them. for this I am taking reference from some websites. please suggest me for good options.
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Old 02-16-2013, 09:29 AM   #292
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hello ,
welcome to you on this forum site.
I have transport business having four toyota which are six yr old, now i want to change them. for this I am taking reference from some websites. please suggest me for good options.
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You should probably be on a truck site. This is Camaro 5.
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Old 02-16-2013, 09:37 AM   #293
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You mean the emission standard change didn't help performance? Gee Wally, I thought you said ALL change was for the better? You are argumentative for its own sake, you own a bunch of muscle cars and brag about your means to own them but argue for the Camaro to be changed into a 4 cylinder econobox because all change is good.

Your statements are not to be believed, if they were--my father in law dying of cancer and my mother dying of a heart attack in the same year must have been a fantastic change. I'm sure all the people who lost money when Lehman crashed or my fellow soldiers who were maimed last year from rocket attacks and IEDs are thinking how awesome it is that their having legs thing changed.

I DO remember the '70s. I am NOT a hippie nor do I expect things for free. The discussion was about 4 cylinder Camaros. This is a Camaro forum, I would have never thought you'd find so many Camaro fans who attack those who like V8 engines, and advocate for govt. regulation to turn muscle cars into econo green low displacement hamster engined smart cars. But I guess thats a change too.

If we embrace and accept every change for the worse, nothing will ever improve and we will doom ourselves to a permanent downward spiral.

Gee Beav ... Nothing like reading between the lines and taking things out of context ... Never once did I say ALL change is good. Never once did I say a change today would make a difference better or worse tomorrow. Some changes take a longer period of time to correct.

I will however state, never once did I say V8's sucked and I didn't like them. I was born and raised in Detroit, and my life revolved around the auto industry. I also was a strong advocate for the street scenes on Woodward Ave. and Gratiot ... My whole point in this entire thread is it's not your place or mine to say someone can't or shouldn't want a 2.0T in a Camaro. Who cares if the ZL1 cost extra taxes, most that can afford one this is a non issue.

I stand behind my statement that you change the things you can, and embrace the things you can't.

I lost a lot of friends in the late 60's and early 70's that were drafted into a war we didn't belong in. But from all of that there were lessons learned, that are applied today.

You know nothing about me, I was a very big into anti government. I was at every protest and sit in I could get to. If you want to call me an elitist because I'm able to make it in life, and am responsible for my own destiny or demise so be it.
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:06 AM   #294
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Was only pointing out to those that are implying the Camaro is and has been so awesome that you couldn't have a 4 cylinder engine in it. It has had a 4 cylinder and it has been a crappy performing car.

Allllllll I was saying is that if you put the 2.5L in the car it would likely perform better than the 82 POS powered Camaro.

Anything else you are pulling from my post is you jumping to an incorrect conclusion.

But lets just ask, since you seam to want this to be about government intervention in our lives and not just "why would anyone want a 4 cylinder in a Camaro".

At what point should the government not regulate our transportation? Should you be required to have lights to drive more safely and so others can see you? (FMVSS regulation) Should you have mirrors in order to safely opperate your vehicle and not damage others? (FMVSS regulation) Should you have brakes to safely stop and an acclerator that doesn't stick? (FMVSS regulations). Should you have the confidence that the Chinese should be able come here and sell whatever hooptie mobile they want with disregard to basic automotive safety? Or should it just be a blanking free for all and you can drive whatever the hell you want because it's a free market? How about loads on big trucks? Should they be required to meet certain safety regulations so you can be safe? (Gov. Regs). Should there be a speed limit?

Where is that line?

And don't jump to conclusions on my post, just comment on if truly believe it should be a wild west free for all on the roads.
Ok I'll give it a shot. We need Govt. regulation for safety and basic road laws. You are correct and I will concede this. But Govt works for us, they shouldn't work for themselves or for special interests. There shouldn't be regulations designed to force my behavior to support their monetary gain. For instance, a certain Missouri Politician shouldn't push to give stimulus money to windmill companies when his son owns one. Al (Jazeera) Gore shouldn't be able to force cap and trade legislation when he owns a company that stands to make quite a fortune from it. Legislation shouldn't force all cars to be the same, or most people to have to drive "Le Govt. econo car"

this thread started about 4 cylinder Camaros, and we all have opinions on it. Yours are valid but so are mine. You prefer a small energy efficient Kia type entry level Camaro, some on here prefer a Honda accord or nissan Altima style SS. I prefer the reason I bought this car in the first place.

GM and the Govt. will do what they do. You are correct-- they had a 4 cylinder Camaro and they had underperforming weak sister V8s. They also discontinued the Camaro, and they went bankrupt. When they advertised the iron duke, they (like now ). Praised the 4cylinder engine. They didn't say " this will be a piece of crap for entry level sales purposes." If they choose to do what many here seem to advocate; making the entry level car an econo box and the SS a Honda accord I will not buy GM, much less Chevy. (And I love Chevy's)

So to conclude, the Govt. can make and should make regulations, but not onerous ones or self serving ones or unnecessary ones.
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:14 AM   #295
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I'm very aware . . .
There actually have been times where I wondered how things would have turned out had I become a machinist instead. Might have been a bit more portable. Whether I'd have ended up any better off we'll never know.
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Guess we will all just have to agree to disagree, because this thing sure hung a left a long time a go.
Fair enough, at least on that point.




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I think it would be much more productive to get the makers of those cars to offer a coupe version than it would be to change the camaro into a 2 door copy of them.
Somehow, I can't see tougher competition at the Camaro's entry point being a good thing for the Camaro.


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You are misreading me. I don't really care what they offer in terms of a base model, but I see here a lot of people who seem to be saying that a tiny camaro with a tiny engine with the boost cranked up is what they want the car to be.
Then you are guilty of a little misreading as well. People aren't clamoring for a hand-grenade T4, or necessarily even a T4 making STi/Evo numbers. Opposition to T4's based on imagined states of tune higher than necessary is being used as an argument against ALL T4's There's probably a fancy name for this kind of logical fallacy, but I'm too lazy to go chase it down..

Think in terms of 2.5L or a bit more, with more moderate boost levels that would come in quicker or at lower revs. Balance-shafted if/as necessary.


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I think you would find these same people in a Harley Davidson forum complaining because they don't make crotchrockets.
Rehash of the Camaro pickup argument?



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But that's only a small part of my disagreement. The biggest part of it is that there are people on here who knowingly put aside their own common sense to take the side that CAFE standards are a good thing and that it won't hurt the Camaro to have them. The 4 cylinder camaro can be attributed to the CAFE standards and I believe that to meet those goals that the I4 will be nowehere near the performer people dream of. It wouldn't surprise me if they put something like CAGS or AFM on the I-4 (or worse), because they "have" to. Meanwhile the V8 will be reduced to a limited production car that only Jay Leno and Rick Hendrick will be able to afford.
This isn't an all-or-nothing situation. Even you'll have to admit that forcing the technology has (at the very least as a side effect if not by outright intent) produced more powerful engines. Hell, with only a little 281, my '08 Mustang is both quicker and traps higher than what the SS396 Chevelles could do. Think about that, from a hundred fifteen fewer cubic inches.

But I get the concept of diminishing returns, and we're off the steep part of the learning curve as it is. Seems to me a reasonable point to at least pause.



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Many people can afford things but choose not to because they don't like the direction things are going. Why buy a $60K car when someone might decide that you don't "need" it and take it away.
Once you've bought it, it's yours. Hence what you're hinting at clearly runs afoul of the 4th Amendment (unreasonable search and seizure).


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That's a really bogus comparison. The 82 V8 was a complete POS because the EPA and NHTSA came along with all their CAFE and "smog" standards 10 years earlier, and it took the car companies another 10 years to get back to where they were when it all started.

If you think we shoud all go back to driving cars for the with power like that of cars 20 years ago (taking 20 years to get back to current power), then CAFE is your ticket.
And to think that I thought we'd ALL managed to get past thinking thaqt all 4 cylinder engines were Iron Dukes . . .

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I think many of the people here must have been born in the mid-late 80's and came of driving age in the late 90's or early 2000's, and completly missed the dreck we had in the mid 70's and 80's. They have NO CLUE how bad CAFE was for performance, so they don't know enough to oppose it.
This is perhaps true, though it was the confluence of CAFE and early emissions control terchnology. Yes, I remember when catalytic converters were filled with pellets too. Might still have one of those things laying around somewhere.

Have to agree with SlingShot on this

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Performance started taking a hit around 1971, when emission standards was increased and low lead fuel was introduced. After that is when they started to make standards for MPG. The problem we had was the lack of technology to keep up. We have come a long way since then, and far surpassed the performance levels prior to the new standards due mainly through new technology.

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Old 02-16-2013, 11:57 AM   #296
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You really can't make an apples to apples comparison from 1967 to now. Even with and without the different government standards the cars are worlds apart. Like it or not, technology and safety cost more. To be honest I'm grateful for where cars are today, because back in 1967 the cars were built like crap and you didn't get the warranty's that you get today. Granted nothing is for free, and we pay for those extras but most of us don't complain if we get into a wreck or have something break.
Really? built like crap?Those cars were built with pride back then. The safety aspect wasnt there I agree because the regulations werent set up and less drivers on the road than toady. Understandable. But youre telling me plastic beats metal? Youre telling me sticker chrome is better than actual aluminum grilles and steel chrome? The engineering may have not been as it is today, but if you think for one second that those cars of the past were built like crap, youre delusional. How is a car "built like crap" so easily mistaken when you could put ANY engine into them very easily with damn near just a swap. Try putting that LS3 into V6 Camaro when its the SAME car. Something breaks on your car, are you fixing it yourself? As for the warranty? warranties are a joke. You didnt need a warranty on a car back then because anyone with half a brain could fix what was wrong with it at home.
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Old 02-16-2013, 02:19 PM   #297
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Are you considering that the "governement interference" is only a portion of that adjusted cost increase? Much of it is technology improvements that arguably we would want and pay for that weren't available then.
The BellSouth/IBM Simon Personal Communicator was released in 1993. The Simon Personal Communicator was the first mobile phone to add PDA features. It was a phone, pager, calculator, address book, fax machine, and e-mail device in one package, albeit a 20-ounce package that cost $900.

Today I can buy a Galaxy SIII mobile phone with a 16GB memory, TouchWiz interface, it's S Voice feature can recognize 8 languages, it can play music, TV programs, podcasts, audiobooks, and surf the Internet. It also has a 1.9 megapixel camera that can also shoot HD video at 720p @ 230 frames/s.

Despite the added cost of technology improvements that weren't available back then the Galaxy SIII retails for $699.99.

So now we have a product that has numerous technological advancements and yet is cheaper in real dollars than it was 2 decades ago (when you factor in inflation, the price gap gets even bigger).

How did this happen? I have an idea! Maybe it was because the Gov't wasn't mandating to cell phone companies how long battery life had to be, drop test ratings, size and weight, what applications must be put on the phones, nor mandating what cameras must be on the phones, etc. When the private sector is unmolested, and when consumer demand drives the market, the advances in technology and drops in price will amaze you.
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Old 02-16-2013, 02:43 PM   #298
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Really? built like crap?Those cars were built with pride back then. The safety aspect wasnt there I agree because the regulations werent set up and less drivers on the road than toady. Understandable. But youre telling me plastic beats metal? Youre telling me sticker chrome is better than actual aluminum grilles and steel chrome? The engineering may have not been as it is today, but if you think for one second that those cars of the past were built like crap, youre delusional. How is a car "built like crap" so easily mistaken when you could put ANY engine into them very easily with damn near just a swap. Try putting that LS3 into V6 Camaro when its the SAME car. Something breaks on your car, are you fixing it yourself? As for the warranty? warranties are a joke. You didnt need a warranty on a car back then because anyone with half a brain could fix what was wrong with it at home.

I stand by my comment, I've been in every factory in Detroit from the Chrysler Jefferson plant to GMC Truck in Flint. I've seen and experienced everything first hand. You would have been very surprised, the crap that goes on in those factorys. They were cities within a city. There was more illegal activities going on than work, and the only thing that was cared about was the paycheck at the end of the week.

Just because the cars had more metal didn't make them better. Their idea of holding tolerances back then was " close enough " . I guess just because the cars were simpler and easier to work on made them better, that's ok. It's ok if rusting and turning into rattle traps within a couple years was better.

As far as the warranty thing back then, your right because I wouldn't want to stand behind the products either.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:10 PM   #299
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I stand by my comment, I've been in every factory in Detroit from the Chrysler Jefferson plant to GMC Truck in Flint. I've seen and experienced everything first hand. You would have been very surprised, the crap that goes on in those factorys. They were cities within a city. There was more illegal activities going on than work, and the only thing that was cared about was the paycheck at the end of the week.

Just because the cars had more metal didn't make them better. Their idea of holding tolerances back then was " close enough " . I guess just because the cars were simpler and easier to work on made them better, that's ok. It's ok if rusting and turning into rattle traps within a couple years was better.

As far as the warranty thing back then, your right because I wouldn't want to stand behind the products either.
Well, who cares how much illegal acvtivity was going on? Ive never seen a straightlaced corporation. Have you?

As for the paycheck thing, we can agree that hasnt changed nor will it change. I'm sure its exactly the same and those folks could give a damn about putting together a car day in and day out. Especially the way the Union has been played out.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:28 PM   #300
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At what point should the government not regulate our transportation? Should you be required to have lights to drive more safely and so others can see you?
You have it ALL WRONG.

The real questions is: At what point has the government FINISHED their transporation regulations?

You would think that after 100 years of cars and car regulations, that they would have figured out what lights we need, how many MPH our bumpers must take, and what MPGs we should have, don't you?

A common misconception or intentional misrepresentation of certain politiicians is that people who argue for less regulation are "anti regulation" and those who argue for smaller government are "anti government". This is totally wrong. There are roles for regulation and government that are clearly defined. People reject the OVERREACH beyond those definitions.

The problem is that the regulators NEED to keep regulating and re-regulating, because even though the number of things that can be regulated is finite, they will be out of a job if they ever finish the task.

Therefore, we have regulations on top of regulations ammending regulations, and updating regulations. Same for laws too. There's no end. The job of the regulator is FIRST to protect their own jobs by constantly rewriting regulations.

Did you know that in the past 3 months the governernment has put our nearly 6,000 regulations?

Regulations put a drag on the economy be the sheer work needed to keep up with them and follow them. The private sector spends $500 BILLION a year just in regulation compliance. This is dragging the economy into the mud.

We regulate things and then change the regulations the next year, and people waste tremendous time becuase nothing is ever the same and so more time and money is wasted.

There's a certain finite number of regulations we need, and the rest are just regulators trying to protect their jobs, plus a certain amount of regulations being created because the party in control wants to use them as a tool to change the society. WE DO NOT NEED THIS.

Most, if not all of the regulations you cited are completely unnecessary because they would be done voluntarily by carmakes because of consumer demand or as the result of lawsuits long since decided.

Do we REALLY need backup sensors on every car? Do we REALLY need stability control on every car? Do we really need CHMSL on every car?
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:34 PM   #301
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You have it ALL WRONG.

The real questions is: At what point has the government FINISHED their transporation regulations?

You would think that after 100 years of cars and car regulations, that they would have figured out what lights we need, how many MPH our bumpers must take, and what MPGs we should have, don't you?

A common misconception or intentional misrepresentation of certain politiicians is that people who argue for less regulation are "anti regulation" and those who argue for smaller government are "anti government". This is totally wrong. There are roles for regulation and government that are clearly defined. People reject the OVERREACH beyond those definitions.

The problem is that the regulators NEED to keep regulating and re-regulating, because even though the number of things that can be regulated is finite, they will be out of a job if they ever finish the task.

Therefore, we have regulations on top of regulations ammending regulations, and updating regulations. Same for laws too. There's no end. The job of the regulator is FIRST to protect their own jobs by constantly rewriting regulations.

Did you know that in the past 3 months the governernment has put our nearly 6,000 regulations?

Regulations put a drag on the economy be the sheer work needed to keep up with them and follow them. The private sector spends $500 BILLION a year just in regulation compliance. This is dragging the economy into the mud.

We regulate things and then change the regulations the next year, and people waste tremendous time becuase nothing is ever the same and so more time and money is wasted.

There's a certain finite number of regulations we need, and the rest are just regulators trying to protect their jobs, plus a certain amount of regulations being created because the party in control wants to use them as a tool to change the society. WE DO NOT NEED THIS.

Most, if not all of the regulations you cited are completely unnecessary because they would be done voluntarily by carmakes because of consumer demand or as the result of lawsuits long since decided.

Do we REALLY need backup sensors on every car? Do we REALLY need stability control on every car? Do we really need CHMSL on every car?
You'd think with all the regulations being passed, insurance companies would re-assess their premiums? I mean, should'nt they? Nahhh their mentality is that of the regulatory commissions. To suck the economy dry.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:39 PM   #302
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Once you've bought it, it's yours. Hence what you're hinting at clearly runs afoul of the 4th Amendment (unreasonable search and seizure).
Apaprently, you are not paying attention to the world around you.

Where I live we now cannot own certain scary looking firearms, and accessories even though we bought them legally. This is currently the law, but the courts may uphold the 4th ammendment. There's a chance they will NOT, and therefore the constitution is shredded a bit more.

Even if there's no outright BAN on something, they can find ways to make it useless. For example, they get around the 4th ammendment not by actually confiscating your V8, but instead by putting a $10K per year registration fee on any car with more than 4 cylinders.

This is effectively a de-facto "ban", without violating the 4th ammendment. Same result.

They're dumb, but they have learned over time how to circumvent the protections of our rights in the constitution.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:43 PM   #303
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Well, who cares how much illegal acvtivity was going on? Ive never seen a straightlaced corporation. Have you?
Just recently some UAW workers were busted smoking weed and drinking while on break, THREE times. And they weren't even fired!

http://freebeacon.com/uaw-wins-jobs-...-on-the-clock/

But we all know change is good. Without the changes the unions brought, those poor guys would have been fired.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:46 PM   #304
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Just recently some UAW workers were busted smoking weed and drinking while on break, THREE times. And they weren't even fired!

http://freebeacon.com/uaw-wins-jobs-...-on-the-clock/

But we all know change is good. Without the changes the unions brought, those poor guys would have been fired.
Well obviously its one of 2 things: Either those workers produced too exceptional of work to fire, or there's no one to replace them! I wonder if politics played a part?
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:49 PM   #305
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Well obviously its one of 2 things: Either those workers produced too exceptional of work to fire, or there's no one to replace them! I wonder if politics played a part?
Dont worry, the auto plants and their workers are better now than they used to be. Remember, change is good. SlingShot told us so.
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Old 02-16-2013, 04:04 PM   #306
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Dont worry, the auto plants and their workers are better now than they used to be. Remember, change is good. SlingShot told us so.
If politics werent a no-no on this board, I'd give my thoughts on this "change" thing.
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