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Old 12-03-2012, 10:45 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by CamaroGirl5 View Post
they are STUPID if they make a 4 banger Camaro...its an american muscle car! not a ricer or import! if you want a lightweight turbo ricer then buy a neon or something stupid like that...and the whole mpg thing needs to stop too...i get it for daily drivers and "normal" cars, but this is a SPORTS car...let it go...i will have no respect for the 4 cyl camaro no matter what the power or how lightweight it is. v6 and v8 only!

Just my opinion not that it matters...
The "whole MPG thing" CAN'T stop. The current market demands fuel efficiency in addition to performance. Plus the ever present problem that is CAFE standards.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:50 PM   #127
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the general public can buy malibus, cruzes, sonics, etc if they want a 4 cylinder...dont call it a muscle car then...a muscle car has muscle not teenie tiny engines that have help with turbos
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:51 PM   #128
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"Will"? hmmm....Mr. Reuss has a very strong opinion on what should and shouldn't wear the hallowed "SS" badge...would a V6 Camaro meet is expectations, I wonder?

I don't think he was comparing the two. He was expressing a desire to see the Camaro be offered in V8 only, and I brought up Corvette; saying it already did that.

Don't under-estimate the Camaro's "halo-factor", though...A couple of my local dealers seem to be under the impression that more people are coming in to look at the ZL1 just for eye candy than the Corvette, recently...
I was speaking about the entire market target for each car. The Camaro is marketed to appeal to a wider range of people than the Corvette. Yes the ZL1 is the Halo car in the lineup of Camaros, but you can also say the ZR1 is the halo car of the Corvette lineup.
I look at it this way the V6 Camaro was built to appeal to those that bought the last generation Monte Carlo.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:52 PM   #129
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The way the V-6 guys get grief around here, I can olnly imagine what the 4-cyl guys would have to endure.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:52 PM   #130
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These turbo fours get impressive mileage ratings from the EPA (which I guess is all any of the manufactures care about anymore), but in the real world, provide very little benefit...and if you drive one hard and keep them spooled, they can become even thirstier than the NA V6 engines they replace, while needing 40 cent a gallon higher premium to boot.
Premium is only recommended in the current T4 they use. Point valid and taken, but they won't disintegrate if you use 89.

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Times are not changing....it is more of a repeating loop. We are living the late 60s over again right now, with the 70s-esque era of 4-banger MPG trimmed "muscle" cars right in front of us. And nothing says muscle like that four-cylinder buzzzzz.
I disagree...because of a very big difference between then and now. Then - performance was sacrificed in a big way. It didn't matter how much money you had, you just simply couldn't get it.

Today, you can...and even the "mpg trimmed muscle cars" will not sacrifice a dynamic driving experience in order to help the fleet average. That's worth recognizing...because it says something about learning from the past.

I don't like CAFE...but since it is what it is...I'm impressed with the direction they're taking. It could be a LOT worse.

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Question is, will the V8 be available on the SS, or become limited to the high price, low volume ZL1. And what about those who want a V6?
I think the V8 will get more expensive. Look at the what they've put into the new LT1...it almost has to....but then, they said that about this generation's SS... As far as the V6...my understanding is that it'll still be available as another trim level. This is all of this, of course, hypothetical.

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And lets compare the ATS vs. Camaro. The V6 Camaro has 50 more horsepower, and despite being over 300 pounds heavier and less aerodynamic, is about as efficient. 3.6>2.0T.
I was advocating to compare the ATS to what a 6thgen Camaro could be.

But in your scenario, you forget to take a couple of key things into consideration...the ATS turbo is designed to be a performance car. It's a couple of ticks faster to 60 and in the quarter. But it offers enormous benefits in handling thanks to lower mass...The 3.6L Camaro was tuned for mpg in LS trim, plain and simple...super tall rear axle gear, and all-season tires.

2-3mpg difference might not seem ground breaking, but they fight over fractions of a mpg when they build cars....and when the fleet average is calculated, this difference is enormous.

I guess all I mean to say is they're not thinking about this for no reason...but at the same time - it won't be something that'll embarrass the car's reputation.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:53 PM   #131
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Bonanza7;5876150]The Solstice 2.0 turbo was a blast to drive. I got the NA version since I did not trust the turbo for longevity. I am a flight instructor, and fly far better turbos in the planes. They are not reliable. After talking to some owners who have had them for awhile, seems the 2.0 is pretty good. If they get rid of the fat, it might be a good alternative.
The hundreds of millions of miles driven by the diesel community (2 million of them attributed by my trucks) would beg to differ. Most turbo reliability issues occur when incompetent quack jobs install ridiculously shiny hair dryers which in turn transforms the turbo or block into an A.E.D. (Accidental Explosive Device)[/QUOTE]

You may be right, but I have had engine failures in turbo planes,caused by turbo malfunctions. Maintenance costs soar . Never had a turbo car, but have seen so many problems in other car turbos, (not the Solstices), that I would still be leery without a GOOD warranty.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:53 PM   #132
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The "whole MPG thing" CAN'T stop. The current market demands fuel efficiency in addition to performance. Plus the ever present problem that is CAFE standards.
I understand they cant stop...I just dont agree with it is all...each company should be allowed to have sports cars that dont follow it but I know that wont happen...
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:53 PM   #133
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the general public can buy malibus, cruzes, sonics, etc if they want a 4 cylinder...dont call it a muscle car then...a muscle car has muscle not teenie tiny engines that have help with turbos


The current 2.0T is knocking on 300 HP's door. Couple that with a flat torque curve over a wide band of engine power and a lightweight platform. I fail to see how that doesn't constitute "muscle."
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:55 PM   #134
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The current 2.0T is knocking on 300 HP's door. Couple that with a flat torque curve over a wide band of engine power and a lightweight platform. I fail to see how that doesn't constitute "muscle."
thats fine, just dont put it in the camaro! and how does that sound coming out the exhaust? I guarantee it wont sound like "muscle"
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:56 PM   #135
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thats fine, just dont put it in the camaro! and how does that sound coming out the exhaust? I guarantee it wont sound like "muscle"
The head editor at GMInsideNews just replaced his 2009.5 G8 GT with an ATS 2.0T and has stated the exhaust note of the 2.0T is actually louder and better than the 6.0L V8's. FWIW.

As for not putting it in the Camaro, too bad. Chances of it happening are way better than not.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:58 PM   #136
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thats fine, just dont put it in the camaro! and how does that sound coming out the exhaust? I guarantee it wont sound like "muscle"
Does it have to? Does the current V6?

There are ways to properly tune a 4-bangers exhaust so it doesn't sound like a fart-can...They can give it a little growl without being "bee-hive-ish"....sadly stupid movies like Fast/Furious have anchored that god-awful sound to those abominations called cars they feature on screen, and they've all got 4-cylinders...In real life, there are professionals that don't do that.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:59 PM   #137
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thats fine, just dont put it in the camaro! and how does that sound coming out the exhaust? I guarantee it wont sound like "muscle"
A v6 doesn't sound like muscle either, but its been done for a looong time across multiple cars, not just camaros. They need to make the car appeal to a broad spectrum of people.
Otherwise the only thing you'll be hearing is the sound of the assembly plant closing like it did in 02.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:59 PM   #138
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For 4 cylinders..



Sounds damn good for a 4 cylinder... better than an LS3.. NO.. still good for what it's worth tho
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:59 PM   #139
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The head editor at GMInsideNews just replaced his 2009.5 G8 GT with an ATS 2.0T and has stated the exhaust note of the 2.0T is actually louder and better than the 6.0L V8's. FWIW.

As for not putting it in the Camaro, too bad. Chances of it happening are way better than not.
my friends 09 g8 gt prolly sounds better than the ats...yes I have heard both and could get alot more people to agree with me, but again, matter of opinion. And the chances of it going into the camaro prolly are high and thats fine, nothing I can do about it, just stating my opinions on here, everyone has their own taste, I just wont buy one, and when my V8 pulls up next to that new 4 cyl, its gonna be buh bye buddy...
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:01 PM   #140
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my friends 09 g8 gt prolly sounds better than the ats...yes I have heard both and could get alot more people to agree with me, but again, matter of opinion. And the chances of it going into the camaro prolly are high and thats fine, nothing I can do about it, just stating my opinions on here, everyone has their own taste, I just wont buy one, and when my V8 pulls up next to that new 4 cyl, its gonna be buh bye buddy...
Well no sh*t. That's an apples to oranges comparison. A Corvette ZR1 could pull up next to your SS and send it crying home to Oshawa.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:01 PM   #141
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Does it have to? Does the current V6?

There are ways to properly tune a 4-bangers exhaust so it doesn't sound like a fart-can...They can give it a little growl without being "bee-hive-ish"....sadly stupid movies like Fast/Furious have anchored that god-awful sound to those abominations called cars they feature on screen, and they've all got 4-cylinders...In real life, there are professionals that don't do that.
i have several v6 friends and their cars sound better than SOME of the v8s...but again, matter of opinion.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:02 PM   #142
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Otherwise the only thing you'll be hearing is the sound of the assembly plant closing like it did in 02.



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and when my V8 pulls up next to that new 4 cyl, its gonna be buh bye buddy...
What about the rest of the car...or are we riding engines down the road, now? Interesting adaptation of the "heated seat"... I'm sorry, couldn't resist.

Ford sells engines, Chevy sells cars, dammit!
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:03 PM   #143
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Well no sh*t. That's an apples to oranges comparison. A Corvette ZR1 could pull up next to your SS and send it crying home to Oshawa.
thats not what the guy in the zr1 that raced me this summer did...in fact he shook my hand afterwards.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:04 PM   #144
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thats not what the guy in the zr1 that raced me this summer did...in fact he shook my hand afterwards.
The point is comparing your V8 to a 2.0T is just stupid. It's not a valid comparison in the least.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:07 PM   #145
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The point is comparing your V8 to a 2.0T is just stupid. It's not a valid comparison in the least.
im comparing 2 camaros (or future camaros in this case)...people compare all kinds of stupid cars together...i just read an article comparing a vette to a ferrari...v8 to v12? ummm no...
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:09 PM   #146
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im comparing 2 camaros (or future camaros in this case)...people compare all kinds of stupid cars together...i just read an article comparing a vette to a ferrari...v8 to v12? ummm no...
You should be comparing performance level, rather than cylinder count.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:10 PM   #147
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You should be comparing performance level, rather than cylinder count.


People are getting waaaaay too hung up on cylinder count.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:10 PM   #148
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People are getting waaaaay too hung up on cylinder count.
u just did!
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:13 PM   #149
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:13 PM   #150
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u just did!
No, what I did was point out how stupid it is to expect a 270-300 HP 2.0T Alpha Camaro to have a shot against a 426 HP LS3 Zeta Camaro.
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