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Old 12-08-2012, 06:52 PM   #276
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I did not know that! thank you for the information, but is it so unlikely that a new generation of turbos in the newest 4 wouldn't have higher mpg standards with performance benefits?? and I find the EPA estimates incredibly low. I have yet to get lower then 21 in town.
Sure, further fuel economy advances will be achieved with turbo-4s as the years go on and technology improves, but the same can be said of NA V6s as well.

Based on what I'm seeing, the downsizing and turbocharging trend is not netting significant economy gains as promised, at least not in the real world. Companies doing it, Ford with Ecoboost in particular, like to advertise the turbo-4 as some miracle engine, with the power of a V6, but the economy of a 4. Well, no, they more closely end up with the power of a V6 with the economy of a V6. Just because the turbo engine may have the displacement and cylinder count as a base Ford Focus certainly does not mean it will get the same mileage as one. If you want the base Focus mileage, you have to accept the base Focus tune and power level, too.

Also, I must have a similar driving style to you, because I too have no problem beating EPA estimates in anything I drive. During the warmer months, I can consistently get upper 30s out of my Alero, and I even got 31 a couple of times out of my 5.0 last summer. One interesting thing I've noticed from experience about EPA ratings from driving many different vehicles is how consistently inconsistent they seem to be, where whole classes of vehicles seem to be underrated more than others, while others seem to get better ratings than they deserve. For example, A typical "car" will usually beat the EPA highway estimate by 15-25% or sometimes more for me, while crossover SUVs with the same driving style usually average out to 5-10% above their rating at best.

I suspect the turbo engines are the same way...i.e. they put up impressive numbers within the narrow parameters of the EPA test, but in the real world, don't perform as well as a N/A engine with the same rating when you start using the gas pedal. A lot of car mags and online reviews post real world fuel economy in reviews now, and it seems that when driven hard (as a sports car like the 6th-gen Camaro will likely be more often than other cars), turbo engines (at least gas ones, diesels seem to do better) end up missing their EPA targets by more than N/A engines. The EcoBoosts seem particularly bad. (I know, we're discussing GM, but the Fords offer the most available data for turbos, and if those are supposed to be mainstream turbos....why would someone else's mainstream turbo be much different?)
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:03 PM   #277
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My Turbo Cobalt with a 22psi tune only averages about 24 in town and 28 on the hway. I do drive it fairly aggressive.

I want to say I love this car and I am happy I bought it. The motor is so impressive my hat is off to gm for really giving people like me a chance to buy an american 4cl car that can be tuned and run with the import crowd.

I do not care if they ever put this motor in a camaro or not, but I can honestly tell you that you would not be disappointed if they did.

I wanted the best of both worlds so I know have a 2ss Camaro with supercharger on the way.

I would love to take some of you on a ride in my car as the handling is also second to none.
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:07 AM   #278
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Do you seriously not like the fact that they use the LFX engine across multiple vehicles? I guess you don't understand how good business operates then. You know other manufacturers do the same thing right? The LFX is a fantastic engine, and so GM SHOULD use it wherever they can. Its not exactly the same in each vehicle though...it comes in different states of tune in other cars. I'd not be surprised to see it come as the base engine in the new Silverado. Ram is doing it with their trucks (same V6 engine as in the Challenger....OMG!) and it has gotten good reviews.

Maybe it will perk you up to know it makes the most HP and TQ in the Camaro, even if it is just slightly more. Now..feel better?
I don't like the fact that we're talking about putting a 4 cylinder in a muscle car. I feel like that defeats the purpose of having a muscle car. I don't care how many other successful cars have the same engine, it's irrelevant.

So many people parse quotes though just to make "gotcha" arguments that it tends to screw up the conversation.
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Old 12-09-2012, 03:10 AM   #279
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I don't like the fact that we're talking about putting a 4 cylinder in a muscle car. I feel like that defeats the purpose of having a muscle car. I don't care how many other successful cars have the same engine, it's irrelevant.

So many people parse quotes though just to make "gotcha" arguments that it tends to screw up the conversation.
I don't like the fact that people are so hung up on "muscle cars" (spoiler alert: the original camaro was a pony car to begin with) that people get so upset about cylinder count and not performance/mpgs/cost... but that's just me.
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:12 AM   #280
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I don't like the fact that people are so hung up on "muscle cars" (spoiler alert: the original camaro was a pony car to begin with) that people get so upset about cylinder count and not performance/mpgs/cost... but that's just me.
I agree with the above. The first muscle cars (GTO, Mustang) were pony cars with a bigger engine. If there's a market for a 4 cyl I don't see an issue with filling it.
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:25 AM   #281
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I don't like the fact that people are so hung up on "muscle cars" (spoiler alert: the original camaro was a pony car to begin with) that people get so upset about cylinder count and not performance/mpgs/cost... but that's just me.
You are on a Camaro forum with a bunch of hot-rodders. What do you expect?
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:46 AM   #282
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I don't like the fact that people are so hung up on "muscle cars" (spoiler alert: the original camaro was a pony car to begin with) that people get so upset about cylinder count and not performance/mpgs/cost... but that's just me.
Let's fix that for you: MPG. Stop trying to sell people on the 4 cylinder's performance as it's going to be a step down.

And it's at least hypocritical to defend a cylinder count change by pointing out how neanderthalic it is to be concerned about cylinder count. If cylinders don't matter, then leave the GD car alone.

It's Orwellian to design your "performance" cars (does that feel better, nitpickers?) around fuel mileage. Why have perfornance cars at all then?
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:51 AM   #283
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Because the current market and CAFE standards demand fuel efficiency. Simple as that.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:53 AM   #284
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Let's fix that for you: MPG. Stop trying to sell people on the 4 cylinder's performance as it's going to be a step down.

And it's at least hypocritical to defend a cylinder count change by pointing out how neanderthalic it is to be concerned about cylinder count. If cylinders don't matter, then leave the GD car alone.

It's Orwellian to design your "performance" cars (does that feel better, nitpickers?) around fuel mileage. Why have perfornance cars at all then?
Easy, some people buy the Camaro because of performance and some because of the looks and other factors.

Obviously not all of those want the V8, or the V6 wouldn't be the main seller.

Adding a third option to that (fourth really counting the ZL1, but I referred to cylinder count) cannot in any way hinder anyone that doesn't himself want that cylinder count!

I bet there are people out there that are sold on the whole CAFE thing, etc (not saying they're right, not saying they're wrong!) and the only thing keeping them from buying a Camaro is that it doesn't come with the 4-banger.

Good riddance, let them have their car then! More sales => cheaper manufacturing price => cheaper car in the end.

I want the V8, I buy the V8. But I don't care if someone else buys a turbo 4 or whatever else. Let them make their own decision.

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Old 12-09-2012, 10:54 AM   #285
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Again, it's not like they're canning the V8. It will still be available.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:55 AM   #286
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Again, it's not like they're canning the V8. It will still be available.
Ex-act-ly.

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Old 12-09-2012, 11:15 AM   #287
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Let's fix that for you: MPG. Stop trying to sell people on the 4 cylinder's performance as it's going to be a step down.

And it's at least hypocritical to defend a cylinder count change by pointing out how neanderthalic it is to be concerned about cylinder count. If cylinders don't matter, then leave the GD car alone.

It's Orwellian to design your "performance" cars (does that feel better, nitpickers?) around fuel mileage. Why have perfornance cars at all then?
The Camaro was never considered a Muscle Car. The Camaro was built to compete with the Mustang. They were called pony cars for a reason. It is fine if you have the mentality of I only like V8's in my cars. Besides its a buyers choice and that happens to be yours. I just don't like it when people associate a Muscle Car with everything that has a V8 in it.

Two completely different cars.

Chevelle = Muscle Car (will never be considered a sports car)
Camaro = Pony Car - Sports Car (Will never be considered a Muscle Car)

It was the Big Block / Sedan type cars that were considered Muscle Cars.

I would rather drive in the SCCA than the NHRA, but that is the beauty of choice.
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Old 12-09-2012, 03:29 PM   #288
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All right, doesn't seem to concern anyone else (but my posts do), so I guess I'm done with this thread. Enjoy your 4 cylinders.
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Old 12-09-2012, 03:49 PM   #289
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You say that full of spite as if we want 4 cyls, that's the bit where you're mistaken.

The difference is that we don't care if others get their 4 cyls, you don't want those people to have what they want.

// Stefan
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:34 PM   #290
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I wouldn't worry about it, I really don't see them abanding the V8 performance anytime soon..
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:38 PM   #291
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All right, doesn't seem to concern anyone else (but my posts do), so I guess I'm done with this thread. Enjoy your 4 cylinders.
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You say that full of spite as if we want 4 cyls, that's the bit where you're mistaken.

The difference is that we don't care if others get their 4 cyls, you don't want those people to have what they want.

// Stefan
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:33 PM   #292
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Again, it's not like they're canning the V8. It will still be available.
For the same money?
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:23 AM   #293
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I don't think the prices for Gen6 have been set yet, so it's impossible for us to know, and if for some reason the prices HAVE been set we just have to wait for them to leak.

And that's with or without any new engine(s).

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Old 12-10-2012, 11:47 AM   #294
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Perhaps look at it this way.

Offer a base model with a turbo 2.0 for those people that want a Camaro,but are on a budget and want good gas milage. It would also help with the corporate CAFE requirements.

Offer a up-level Camaro with a V6 either NA or FI for a mid-level performance option.

Offer a ZL1 class Camaro using the new DI LT4, either NA or FI.

With these variations, selling Turbo 2's, and V6's will help bring the CAFE milage up towards where it needs to be and allows GM to contiue to produce smaller volumes of cars with the real HP of a DI LT4.


For those that want a Camaro for apperance reasons, they have the Turbo 2 at a low price point,and for those of us that want a Camaro for performance, they can still offer the LT4 V8.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:04 PM   #295
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Our Sky Red line with the GMPP tune would eat out LLT hands down, and would even give our SS a good run. Never under estimate the 2.0T engines, GM knows how to build them right.
At one point [not too long ago] GM was [and maybe still is] making crate engine from this 2.0 block with a single turbo that was making 1000 HP for drag racing. Yes, I saw the 1000hp with my own eyes, straight from GM catalog. This 2.0 block is one hell of block to make big power.
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:11 PM   #296
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...smaller displacement next gen 4 or 6 cylinder direct injection motors with turbo's are going to give lots of power and good fuel economy, as mandated by the substantial fuel mileage mandates of CAFE in 2016. They will be used corporate wide. The LT1 and the LT4, 8 cyl DI engines, are the real elephants in the room. One na, one supercharged. Both 6.2 L. Both in a sense mechanically similar as in the LS3/LS9, but with different strength levels of certain reciprocating parts, valve train parts etc.., and fuel induction systems (FI and SC). Will that be it for 8 cyl choices, only 2? Will there be a 7.0L 427 CID in the works? Or will that displacement die with the LS line? Will they make the 5.3L in a SHP version as well? I think we should discuss the potential of a limited choice of 8 cyl SHP configurations in our future, since it appears MPG, gross vehicle weight, and GOV restrictions will limit our horsepower and CID diet.
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Old 02-04-2013, 12:03 AM   #297
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...smaller displacement next gen 4 or 6 cylinder direct injection motors with turbo's are going to give lots of power and good fuel economy, as mandated by the substantial fuel mileage mandates of CAFE in 2016. They will be used corporate wide. The LT1 and the LT4, 8 cyl DI engines, are the real elephants in the room. One na, one supercharged. Both 6.2 L. Both in a sense mechanically similar as in the LS3/LS9, but with different strength levels of certain reciprocating parts, valve train parts etc.., and fuel induction systems (FI and SC). Will that be it for 8 cyl choices, only 2? Will there be a 7.0L 427 CID in the works? Or will that displacement die with the LS line? Will they make the 5.3L in a SHP version as well? I think we should discuss the potential of a limited choice of 8 cyl SHP configurations in our future, since it appears MPG, gross vehicle weight, and GOV restrictions will limit our horsepower and CID diet.
Shhhh! Talk like that will get you mocked for being an alarmist. There will ALWAYS be huge high power V8 Camaros. You just have to be one to the elite or ruling class to be allowed to get one.
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Old 02-04-2013, 06:55 AM   #298
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At one point [not too long ago] GM was [and maybe still is] making crate engine from this 2.0 block with a single turbo that was making 1000 HP for drag racing. Yes, I saw the 1000hp with my own eyes, straight from GM catalog. This 2.0 block is one hell of block to make big power.


This was Oldsmobile's experimental test bed, powered by a single turbo 4 cyl which produced nearly 900 horsepower, and another variant with twin tubos produced over 1,000 horses.

Here is a link to a good read on the program and Ed Welburn
http://www.automobilemag.com/feature...h/viewall.html

I'm an Oldsmobile guy from way back.
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Old 02-04-2013, 11:41 AM   #299
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I don't like the fact that people are so hung up on "muscle cars" (spoiler alert: the original camaro was a pony car to begin with) that people get so upset about cylinder count and not performance/mpgs/cost... but that's just me.
I've noticed a trend in your posts. You knock people who buy a V8 for the sound and performance while pushing the non existant TT V6 Camaro. Seems to me like you wanted a V8 but couldn't get it and have to continually justify buying the V6 yourself.

Back on topic. I fully expect to see engine cylinder counts and displacements to continually decrease. The price of V8s will keep going up until they are out of the price range of most people.
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Old 02-04-2013, 12:17 PM   #300
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I've noticed a trend in your posts. You knock people who buy a V8 for the sound and performance while pushing the non existant TT V6 Camaro. Seems to me like you wanted a V8 but couldn't get it and have to continually justify buying the V6 yourself.

Back on topic. I fully expect to see engine cylinder counts and displacements to continually decrease. The price of V8s will keep going up until they are out of the price range of most people.
And just because cylinder counts may go down, it doesn't neccessarily mean the HP will go down.

just wait and see.......

Maybe it'll get a trubo 4cyl with 330HP and quad fart cans.
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