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Old 12-27-2011, 03:33 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
Personally, I can't wait for the 6thgen to roll around. If based on nothing else than current ATS production videos...it should be killer!!!

As for design, size, etc, etc....I'm not worried about it. I'll leave it to them - THEY are the experts...I'm not.

I know what I prefer, though...a *SLIGHTLY* smaller car with an evolutionary design bringing the key features of the Camaro (low-slung stance, wide shoulders, bold expression, sharp lines, and cut windows) into the future with some extra attention given to aerodynamics. Pure retro, I think, will almost certainly fail.
Your right...the ATS is looking great performance-wise right now. It is only about 7 to 8 seconds off the pace of the 2010 Camaro SS on the Nurburgring. Run the next gen Camaro V6 on the same platform with slightly more performance oriented suspension and hopefully a tad less weight than the ATS and I don't see why they couldn't shave another few seconds off of that. Imagine how the V8 would run!?

As far as your description of the styling...you are spot on.

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Originally Posted by Zabo View Post
Yes, but the point of my post was looking at the various show cars and early EARLY concepts of what became the Camaro to determine what lines actually DEFINE a Camaro?

That is, if they'd also rather just toss everything out the window and slap the badge on a totally new car with zero links to it's predecessors. Which at that point.. well.. you might as well pick another name and kill the Camaro badge.
You are right, and I think the member I quoted above hits on your points as well. Lets make it new, but keep it a Camaro!

GM, I sure hope you are watching this thread.
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Old 12-27-2011, 05:30 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by KMPrenger View Post
Your right...the ATS is looking great performance-wise right now. It is only about 7 to 8 seconds off the pace of the 2010 Camaro SS on the Nurburgring. Run the next gen Camaro V6 on the same platform with slightly more performance oriented suspension and hopefully a tad less weight than the ATS and I don't see why they couldn't shave another few seconds off of that. Imagine how the V8 would run!?

As far as your description of the styling...you are spot on.



You are right, and I think the member I quoted above hits on your points as well. Lets make it new, but keep it a Camaro!

GM, I sure hope you are watching this thread.
Ooooooo where did you hear about the time? Link?
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Old 12-27-2011, 08:31 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by DoggyB22 View Post
PLEASE GM get it in the 35xx-36xx lb range!!! Weight is just killing the Camaros
I agree 100%

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Originally Posted by Fraxum View Post
You are very wrong about weight killing the 5th gens. They are by far the best Camaros ever. Strong at the drags and at the track. I doubt the 6th gens will be 3,600 pounds. If so, nice, but even 3,600 pounds is still a heavy car.
Seriously? Ever taken your car to the track?!? 2 engines and 2 transmissions put me into a Vette. The current car is too fat for it's weak drivetrain.

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Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
If that target weight were so vitally important to the car & market segment, the Mustang would be outselling the Camaro. But last I checked, the Camaro's lead was increasing.
It's outselling the Mustang on looks, go ask anyone who races how inportant looks are.

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I think he is speaking from an enthusiast's standpoint. Lower weight is never a bad thing. Additionally, if you never strive to improve - you don't.
Smart man

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I'm sorry but honestly you guys are in denial right now....... yes I love the look of the 5th gen. & yea its sales are beating the Mustang. BUT its sales are only doing that based off looks & it being a Camaro brought back to life. NOT on performance. Plus the Mustangs looks didn't change that much from the 2005-2009 style. Compare the fastest 5.0 GT vs SS. Mustang got it by a long shot. Every one I know or on forums if given a chance to either buy a 5.0 or SS for "performance wise only" would buy the 5.0. I mean the 2010-11 GT weighs like 35xx lbs +- They both make around the same power but the 5.0 is quicker in the 1/4 mile? Part of that is due to weight. I mean my 2001 Z28 weighs 3340 lbs without me in it & with a 1/2 tank. & that's full interior minus the rear seats. If GM can't get the Camaro in the low 35xx - mid 36xx lb range then that's pretty sad!


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Originally Posted by Cam#7 View Post
First, if you had a Gen5 would get it.
Second, I've had a couple of Gen1s and other than the gauges, gills and angle of the front grill; the Gen5 is on it's own.
Third, don't ever worry about the Gen6 taking clues from the Gen4.
Had a 5th gen, just replaced it with a C5 Vette. I get it loud and clear....if you're after looks, get a 5th gen. If you're after performance without exploding parts, look elsewhere.
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Old 12-27-2011, 08:34 PM   #154
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I sincerely hope there won't any 5th-gen dogging as time progresses towards this new generation...I see absolutely no need for it....

Improvement on an already great car (that would be the 5th gen) is possible, you know!........
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Old 12-27-2011, 08:40 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
I sincerely hope there won't any 5th-gen dogging as time progresses towards this new generation...I see absolutely no need for it....

Improvement on an already great car (that would be the 5th gen) is possible, you know!........
I agree, however....I don't think 5th gen owners should be dogging older gens of Camaros either.

Ya see what I'm sayin?
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Old 12-27-2011, 08:42 PM   #156
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I agree, however....I don't think 5th gen owners should be dogging older gens of Camaros either.

Ya see what I'm sayin?
I do!! But I've never believed in the "Well they're doing it!!" excuse...my middle schoolers use it all too often. I tell them they need to worry about themselves...

Did somebody start bashing the previous gens in this thread?
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Old 12-27-2011, 08:56 PM   #157
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Seriously? Ever taken your car to the track?!? 2 engines and 2 transmissions put me into a Vette. The current car is too fat for it's weak drivetrain.
Seriously, been to the track (the kind with curves) and the SS was awesome and it kept up with anything on the track with me. And I am not the best driver. My car isn't stock, with a few well placed mods the stout 5th gen chassis shines. Even stock this is a good handling car. Can improvemnts be made? Sure, as with any car built to a price.

I also go to the drags often but have not raced my car yet. Even though the Mustang Coyote is faster in the right hands I see 5th gen Camaros coming out on top about half the time. So even with the extra 200 pounds it is usually a drivers race GT versus SS.

So who wouldn't agree a lighter car is better? But the extra weight does not ruin the car. One nice benefit is the perfect crash test score.

I wonder though if the 6th gen really will wind up being 200 pounds lighter. I for one doubt it. If so it may wind up being more expensive,

I do agree the axles should be stronger. GM needs to up their game in that area.
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Old 12-27-2011, 09:03 PM   #158
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Here ya go:

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Originally Posted by G10 View Post
Just hope it doesn't look like the butt ugly 90's Camaro. Huuuuula
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Could be worse. It could look like that butt ugly '69 Camaro you see people swooning over. Old inefficent POS cars belong in the smelter. If you think I'm being serious, get the stick out of your ass. M'kay?
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Originally Posted by _Nick_ View Post
The 5th gen looks good, but it is not hard to top. They never topped any of the previous generations with other gens, they just changed the styling to look more modern.

Excluding the 4th gen anyway, that was a huge step down from the car before it.
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Not quite.. biggest step in the wrong direction was 1969 and 1970. They had something in the 69 chassis, but the 1970 turn on it's head just doesn't scream Camaro. The Trans Am ran far and away with the 2nd gen.

1st and 3rd gen really do. What we need to see is the same radical change that came with the 3rd gen. The chassis design, the new body molding techniques found in that rear hatch glass. The emphasis on streamlining as seen with the raked windshield (which was nutso for the time).

4th gen, just a RWD sport coupe. The Trans Am ran with that generation easily.

Just need to look back at what made the 1969 and 1982 Camaros great game changers. Moreso the 1982.
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First, if you had a Gen5 would get it.
Second, I've had a couple of Gen1s and other than the gauges, gills and angle of the front grill; the Gen5 is on it's own.
Third, don't ever worry about the Gen6 taking clues from the Gen4.
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Old 12-27-2011, 09:07 PM   #159
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Seriously, been to the track (the kind with curves) and the SS was awesome and it kept up with anything on the track with me. And I am not the best driver. My car isn't stock, with a few well placed mods the stout 5th gen chassis shines. Even stock this is a good handling car. Can improvemnts be made? Sure, as with any car built to a price.

I also go to the drags often but have not raced my car yet. Even though the Mustang Coyote is faster in the right hands I see 5th gen Camaros coming out on top about half the time. So even with the extra 200 pounds it is usually a drivers race GT versus SS.

So who wouldn't agree a lighter car is better? But the extra weight does not ruin the car. One nice benefit is the perfect crash test score.

I wonder though if the 6th gen really will wind up being 200 pounds lighter. I for one doubt it. If so it may wind up being more expensive,

I do agree the axles should be stronger. GM needs to up their game in that area.
It's decent on the curvy track after a few suspension mods, bone stock it pushes like mad.

At the strip is another story, if got a M6 car get ready for some drivetrain carnage. I'm pretty confident all those issues will be solved with the current ZL1 drivetrain though...but it comes with a weight penalty.

GM made a beautiful car with this 5th gen.....no doubt. And they are selling a boat load of them, which is great news for the nameplate. The problem is, this car was built for the masses, not the enthusiast. By shedding weight in the next gen, hopefully GM will sastify both the masses and the enthusiasts...time will tell.
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Old 12-27-2011, 09:10 PM   #160
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The only Camaros I like are the 67-73 and the 5th gen. Most cars from the 80s were
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Old 12-27-2011, 09:11 PM   #161
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I don't even have a comment for those statements..
Does that mean you agree? Just kidding. But name a better Camaro. Fourth gens? Not in my opinion. I had three of them. The 5th gen is a modern car that is quite fast, handles well at the track, and is very comfortable to drive.

And I never had a car before where so many people come up to me and tell me how cool my car is. It's almost embarrassing.

If all you want to do is go fast in the quarter then the 5th gen is not the car to buy. Get yourself a Fox body mustang.
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Old 12-27-2011, 09:19 PM   #162
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Does that mean you agree? Just kidding. But name a better Camaro. Fourth gens? Not in my opinion. I had three of them. The 5th gen is a modern car that is quite fast, handles well at the track, and is very comfortable to drive.

And I never had a car before where so many people come up to me and tell me how cool my car is. It's almost embarrassing.

If all you want to do is go fast in the quarter then the 5th gen is not the car to buy. Get yourself a Fox body mustang.
He's a local guy...he's watched myself and others grenade 5th gens on a regular basis.

Here's my take....I have owned 7 Camaros...2 second gens, 2 third gens, 2 4thgens and a 5th gen. You're spot on in all aspects...this is hands down the best built, most comfortable Camaro ever produced. It does everything good, but nothing exceptional.

It's a cool car for the masses.....if you're looking to go fast on a road course or drag strip, you had better start looking elsewhere.
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Old 12-27-2011, 09:19 PM   #163
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Here ya go:
Hmmm....:(

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The problem is, this car was built for the masses, not the enthusiast.
I'm not sure I can agree with this point. I think this car is the perfect balance...They chose form over function on many areas to please the masses. Yet by doing so, they never lost the spirit of the enthusiast in using the LS3, 4-corner brembos, or IRS, etc, etc...Every time I stop to think of what they had to overcome in the design of it to achieve these performance levels - I am floored.

And outside of a few unfortunate incidents like yours (to be expected in a car that people actually drive)...the car is remarkably durable and easy-to-modify. Astounding!

I look forward to seeing them magnify this "perfect" formula on an architecture better suited to the task than even the impressive Zeta platform is.

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The only Camaros I like are the 67-73 and the 5th gen. Most cars from the 80s were
I'm going to try and get everyone to kick the habit of bad-mouthing past Camaros...
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Old 12-27-2011, 09:22 PM   #164
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Ooooooo where did you hear about the time? Link?
Here is the link...with several interesting bits on the ATS

http://www.motortrend.com/auto_shows..._cadillac_ats/

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I wonder though if the 6th gen really will wind up being 200 pounds lighter. I for one doubt it. If so it may wind up being more expensive
If the info in the above article and the quote from an actual GM engineer is true, then I don't see why it can't be at least a few hundred lbs lighter. No reason it should be any more expensive because its lighter. Not like they are using lightweight expensive materials...just a new platform to start on.
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Old 12-27-2011, 09:28 PM   #165
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It's decent on the curvy track after a few suspension mods, bone stock it pushes like mad.

At the strip is another story, if got a M6 car get ready for some drivetrain carnage. I'm pretty confident all those issues will be solved with the current ZL1 drivetrain though...but it comes with a weight penalty.

GM made a beautiful car with this 5th gen.....no doubt. And they are selling a boat load of them, which is great news for the nameplate. The problem is, this car was built for the masses, not the enthusiast. By shedding weight in the next gen, hopefully GM will sastify both the masses and the enthusiasts...time will tell.
I consider myself an enthusiast. My last car was a 335i BMW. My SS is every bit as competent in every enthusiast area. But the gas milage is not as good.

I was worried about the weight before I bought the car. But with my mods now I do not notice. It is very easy to cure the understeer by simply adding stronger sway bars. And although I have not done this yet, upgrading to smaller and lighter wheels makes the steering and handling much more responsive. So a good part of that ponderous feeling is from the SUV like wheels and tires. Easily, but not cheaply, fixed.

All cars except for very few are built for the masses. Exceptions like the Z06 and Boss Mustang are few and far between. Hopefully we will see a new Z28 even before the 6th gen.

But back to the 6th gen discussion. I just wonder. Once you add the V8, stronger drive train, bigger brakes, etc. I do not think the Camaro will wind being 200 pounds lighter than the current car. I hope I am wrong. Even so the 6th gen will have to be a very special car to make me sell my 5th gen.
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Old 12-27-2011, 09:28 PM   #166
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this thread is full of lolz
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Old 12-27-2011, 09:37 PM   #167
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He's a local guy...he's watched myself and others grenade 5th gens on a regular basis.

Here's my take....I have owned 7 Camaros...2 second gens, 2 third gens, 2 4thgens and a 5th gen. You're spot on in all aspects...this is hands down the best built, most comfortable Camaro ever produced. It does everything good, but nothing exceptional.

It's a cool car for the masses.....if you're looking to go fast on a road course or drag strip, you had better start looking elsewhere.
Yes i agree the 5th gen is breakable. Weight aggravates things but there is some under-engineering here on the drive train. 4th gens are even worse. We can only hope the 6th gen is better.

We will have to disagree about the handling. Stock there is too much understeer. But this is easily curable. And slow in the 1/4? There are cam and bolton cars running in the 10s at stock weight with no power adders. Seems fast to me.
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Old 12-27-2011, 09:45 PM   #168
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I'm going to try and get everyone to kick the habit of bad-mouthing past Camaros...
Not just Camaros, I would say IMO about 95% of the cars from the late 70s to early 90s were hideous looking when I look back on them now.
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Old 12-27-2011, 09:47 PM   #169
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Not just Camaros, I would say IMO about 95% of the cars from the late 70s to early 90s were hideous looking when I look back on them now.
Fair enough.

Though I LOVE the Corvettes and Camaros of that era.

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Here is the link...with several interesting bits on the ATS

http://www.motortrend.com/auto_shows..._cadillac_ats/

If the info in the above article and the quote from an actual GM engineer is true, then I don't see why it can't be at least a few hundred lbs lighter. No reason it should be any more expensive because its lighter. Not like they are using lightweight expensive materials...just a new platform to start on.
That's an interesting link. There is a risk with focusing so much on weight loss...because then you end up with a car like the genesis coupe - sure it's super-light for its size, but it's a tin can.

The good news for all of us here is that this architecture has been built first for Cadillac, and Cadillac has BMW dead in its sights. Refinement is of the utmost importance...and nothing helps achieve refinement, quietness, and smoothness like a stiff body. That rigidity will serve performance variants, we've seen its benefits in the existing Camaro.

So....with all this in mind...the 3-series is about 3400 lbs with a straight 6. Say Caddy can beat that with their 4 cylinder model, achieving 3200 lbs @ 190 hp - that means a V8 model could theoretically hit right around 3500 lbs @ 400+ hp. Add some expensive weight-saving techniques and materials....this moderator can see a 450hp, 3400 lb Camaro in the distant future.

All speculation on my part. Bottom line is they seem to be focusing in all the right places. And if we, Camaro enthusiasts, have to survive with a 6th generation Camaro based off of the ATS....Heck, I'm not going to complain!!!!
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Old 12-27-2011, 11:22 PM   #170
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And outside of a few unfortunate incidents like yours (to be expected in a car that people actually drive)...the car is remarkably durable and easy-to-modify. Astounding!
True, I will agree that out of ALL the cars I've wrenched on..modding the 5th gen was by far the easiest one to wrench on. The reason why I got out was to hit the levels of performance I wanted the 5th gen platform just wasn't right. Too much expense and frustration!

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Yes i agree the 5th gen is breakable. Weight aggravates things but there is some under-engineering here on the drive train. 4th gens are even worse. We can only hope the 6th gen is better.

We will have to disagree about the handling. Stock there is too much understeer. But this is easily curable. And slow in the 1/4? There are cam and bolton cars running in the 10s at stock weight with no power adders. Seems fast to me.
4th gens had throwaway rear ends....that's for sure...ask me how I know. Jumping to a car with a 3,245 pound curb weight has me giggling like a little school girl I did all the suspension mods, and the car had no issues whipping around a road course.

I had a 470 rwhp full bolt on cam car that was turning 12.1 @ 116..please show me a cam only 5th gen in the 10s at stock weight...this I gotta see.
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Old 12-28-2011, 12:26 AM   #171
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Fair enough.

Though I LOVE the Corvettes and Camaros of that era.
Maybe you had to actually be alive to appreciate them at the time, I was born in '89 lol.
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Old 12-28-2011, 12:34 AM   #172
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Maybe you had to actually be alive to appreciate them at the time, I was born in '89 lol.
So was I, ironically.

Perhaps the difference is I grew up with a '79 Z28 in our garage.
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:11 AM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
So was I, ironically.

Perhaps the difference is I grew up with a '79 Z28 in our garage.
Oh I thought you were older. I never really liked old cars growing up. I loved exotics lol. I say probably around 14 or so is when I got into the old muscle cars (the ones from the 60s)
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:31 AM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Sun View Post
this thread is full of lolz
Stay classy with the "I'm adding constructive critisim and/or arguing my point on the next gen Camaro" there, kiddo. And I don't care if you're 40. You act like you're 14. Post something constructive, lurk, or gtfo. kthxbai.
As for my comments on past gens, the first was pure sarcasm (even noted in the post if you know where to 'find it') With the 2nd gen, that was just personal taste but I was in no way bashing the 2nd gen or 4th gens. I've driven all but the 1st gen. My dad owned a White/Blue stripe '79 Z. My mom owned 3 Camaros (Green 68, Island Teal 69, Dark Blue 77). I've got F-Body running in my veins. And what I stated was my opinion as to where the Camaro should go design/marketing direction wise.

Just an opinion, not truly a 'ZOMG TEH 67 WUZ DUMB NO 24 RIMZ YO LOLZ" bash..
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Old 12-28-2011, 03:57 PM   #175
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Lighter weight is not always better as compromises must be made. I saw a small hybrid car that was hit from behind that looks like it was made with thick tin foil. I want more mass around me in a 580 hp Camaro - just in case! I have one Camaro from each generation so far and have really been into Camaros since Gen. 2. Every time a new gen was produced (67, 70, 82, 93 and 2010) the hype surrounding these cars was phenomenal. The models were always "new and improved" with cool innovations and the magazines drooled over the new Camaro. Only after years of hard driving did we notice shortcomings of each generation. Gen 5 stock cars have issues (except of course for the ZL1!!) and gen 6 will be no different. I'll still plan to buy a good performance gen 6 model no matter what.
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