[DenverTaco07]

WTF is going on?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/uss-john-mc...ry?id=49327836

unbelievable -

10 missing

are they keeping them at sea to long? not enough sailors to maintain 3 watches, like an 8 on 16 off...I mean, the amount of watches (stations) aimed at preventing a collision at sea: RADAR, Bridge, forward and aft lookouts...what the hell is going on?

[JLSuperfly]

Terrible. I hope they find the missing sailors soon.

[frankwjr]

having served for 5 years in the USN I am afraid they will find them down in either the berthing compartments or engine space based on where the strike happened...and incompetency will and has been dealt with harshly(entire officer and upper enlisted were FIRED from the last ship!)

I am concerned if this was in fact an intentional ramming...

[jrhagen]

These are big ass ships. How could they not see each other?

[JLSuperfly]

Originally Posted by jrhagen

These are big ass ships. How could they not see each other?

I guess just like our Camaros, visibility isn't so good.

[JamesMyBoy]

Waaaay back when I was in the Navy, my ships home port was Yokosuka for 4 years. We always left port in the morning (usually after 0730), and came back in during daylight hours. I guess there was a reason for doing such when it was possible to SEE where you were going! Can't imagine this happening other than through total incompetence.

[jrhagen]

My dad's 30 ft fishing boat had radar. I could pilot it out of the harbor, about a mile, just looking at the radar screen. He didn't like it when I did it. But never hit anything.

[The_Blur]

This is a national tragedy, and I couldn't sleep last night thinking of the Sailors who might still be missing.

We are in the midst of an unprecedented problem with the Navy. For decades, we have seen tasking that exceeds our budget, personnel shortfalls, increasing administrative and bureaucratic requirements, and a culture that is willing to accept no failures when it comes to meeting our country's needs. We're proud of our ability as a fighting force to meet the call to action when America or her allies require it. I was onboard one of the ships called to the Korean coast to reassure our regional allies and apply pressure to the North Koreans, and we worked tirelessly to meet operational demands and stay flexible.

I have growing concerns that our shortfalls in logistic and financial support are impacting our training, material readiness, and the quality of product we get out of our Sailors. We can't blame any one person, command, or institution for these challenges, but we have to find a solution that ensures we can be ready to fight. Losing Sailors and ships to incidents at sea reflects on a need to look inward and fight our greatest enemy: ourselves. If we can overcome our shortfalls, we'll be able to grow from this.

For those of you watching, I personally appreciate your investment in our Navy. We work for you. Sailors risk their lives and serve in challenging environments, overcoming personal adversity and unique obstacles only seen at sea. We're different from other forces, and for many of you it can be hard to understand what we do, how we do it, and how it affects our nation. I want to assure you that these incidents will be addressed with care and concern for the wellbeing of our Sailors and our ability to defend freedom and democracy around the world.

If you have questions, I'll do my best to be available to answer them.

—Surface Warfare Officer, LT, USN

[DenverTaco07]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

This is a national tragedy, and I couldn't sleep last night thinking of the Sailors who might still be missing.

We are in the midst of an unprecedented problem with the Navy. For decades, we have seen tasking that exceeds our budget, personnel shortfalls, increasing administrative and bureaucratic requirements, and a culture that is willing to accept no failures when it comes to meeting our country's needs. We're proud of our ability as a fighting force to meet the call to action when America or her allies require it. I was onboard one of the ships called to the Korean coast to reassure our regional allies and apply pressure to the North Koreans, and we worked tirelessly to meet operational demands and stay flexible.

I have growing concerns that our shortfalls in logistic and financial support are impacting our training, material readiness, and the quality of product we get out of our Sailors. We can't blame any one person, command, or institution for these challenges, but we have to find a solution that ensures we can be ready to fight. Losing Sailors and ships to incidents at sea reflects on a need to look inward and fight our greatest enemy: ourselves. If we can overcome our shortfalls, we'll be able to grow from this.

For those of you watching, I personally appreciate your investment in our Navy. We work for you. Sailors risk their lives and serve in challenging environments, overcoming personal adversity and unique obstacles only seen at sea. We're different from other forces, and for many of you it can be hard to understand what we do, how we do it, and how it affects our nation. I want to assure you that these incidents will be addressed with care and concern for the wellbeing of our Sailors and our ability to defend freedom and democracy around the world.

If you have questions, I'll do my best to be available to answer them.

—Surface Warfare Officer, LT, USN

Hey Blur, thanks for that thoughtful post. USN here too, although it's been 17 years. My concern is, i think, somewhat parallel to yours... basically manpower and training which requires $$$. over extended?

to my original post, you have several layers of watches who's primary purpose is the safe navigation of the ship, in less than what, two months all layers of redundancy have failed causing loss of life.

the only explanation i can think of is that everyone on watch is so exhausted, they are asleep. both incidents happened during mid watch....i wonder if drills and lack of manpower etc. is just to much???

if i recall, cargo ships are lit up to all hell, look outs job to report. OJ194 surface tracking collision data is all there. Bridge watch..what 3 to 5 sailors on bridge during mid?

anyway, I just can't fathom the posible reason, other than asleep. I was EW, but do to lack of sailors, was effectively an OS.

one last thought, i know that when entering areas closeto major ports...extra surface tracking watch was utilized, specially at night....anyway, very sad and unbelievable.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by DenverTaco07

Hey Blur, thanks for that thoughtful post. USN here too, although it's been 17 years. My concern is, i think, somewhat parallel to yours... basically manpower and training which requires $$$. over extended?

to my original post, you have several layers of watches who's primary purpose is the safe navigation of the ship, in less than what, two months all layers of redundancy have failed causing loss of life.

the only explanation i can think of is that everyone on watch is so exhausted, they are asleep. both incidents happened during mid watch....i wonder if drills and lack of manpower etc. is just to much???

if i recall, cargo ships are lit up to all hell, look outs job to report. OJ194 surface tracking collision data is all there. Bridge watch..what 3 to 5 sailors on bridge during mid?

anyway, I just can't fathom the posible reason, other than asleep. I was EW, but do to lack of sailors, was effectively an OS.

Having recently returned from deployment, I wonder about several factors. There's a risk theory called the swiss cheese model. The idea is that if you take several slices of swiss cheese, each representing a layer of protective measures, the holes may line up. When the holes in your cheese go all the way through your layers of protections, mishaps occur.

Military service is inherently risky, and we work on the whims of our country and our country's potential adversaries. If someone decides to start making decisions that endanger our people, we're called to quell the threat. As such, no amount of planning can truly prepare us for the unpredictable threats faced by rogue governments (DPRK, etc.) or terrorism (ISIS, etc.). Our enemies don't care about our budgetary constraints. They don't care if your ship's conn showed up a week ago. They just want to cause trouble.

The swiss cheese model applies here. With a higher operational tempo than ever before, we can do all the ORM matrices we want. No amount of safety briefs is enough. More work means more risk. Add to that the cost of training. How many ships have manpower issues? I'm going to go with all of them. They all need something, and the schoolhouses can't support the need. As a result, there's pressure on the schools to pump out graduates, and that may compromise the quality of training our technicians receive. In fact, I've had Sailors discuss the low quality of their technical C-school training, pointing out they already knew how to do the job (welding, etc.) but they needed the school to be fully qualified to do it. This brings up another layer for our swiss cheese model. The schools have to create these graduates because administrative requirements have become overwhelming. Sailors who know how to do things can't because there are so many administrative requirements that they oftentimes find themselves limited in what work they can do to help the ship. The ones that go to school meet the administrative requirements, but limitations on class sizes and dates make it hard to schedule schools around other operational commitments, and sometimes the schools make them more of a pump than a filter. As a result, the few qualified people doing NEC-required technical work may be overworked, which leads to maintenance management issues, especially when someone gets sick, hurt, or otherwise can't get everything done on time.

The list of issues goes on, but I think I made my point. We need to take a hard look in the mirror. All big organizations have problems, but we owe our country the best Navy out there. I'm proud of our leadership for taking an honest look at the community and realizing something wasn't right. I hope we get good policy and improvement out of each other so that we can better do our jobs.

[DenverTaco07]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

Having recently returned from deployment, I wonder about several factors. There's a risk theory called the swiss cheese model. The idea is that if you take several slices of swiss cheese, each representing a layer of protective measures, the holes may line up. When the holes in your cheese go all the way through your layers of protections, mishaps occur.

Military service is inherently risky, and we work on the whims of our country and our country's potential adversaries. If someone decides to start making decisions that endanger our people, we're called to quell the threat. As such, no amount of planning can truly prepare us for the unpredictable threats faced by rogue governments (DPRK, etc.) or terrorism (ISIS, etc.). Our enemies don't care about our budgetary constraints. They don't care if your ship's conn showed up a week ago. They just want to cause trouble.

The swiss cheese model applies here. With a higher operational tempo than ever before, we can do all the ORM matrices we want. No amount of safety briefs is enough. More work means more risk. Add to that the cost of training. How many ships have manpower issues? I'm going to go with all of them. They all need something, and the schoolhouses can't support the need. As a result, there's pressure on the schools to pump out graduates, and that may compromise the quality of training our technicians receive. In fact, I've had Sailors discuss the low quality of their technical C-school training, pointing out they already knew how to do the job (welding, etc.) but they needed the school to be fully qualified to do it. This brings up another layer for our swiss cheese model. The schools have to create these graduates because administrative requirements have become overwhelming. Sailors who know how to do things can't because there are so many administrative requirements that they oftentimes find themselves limited in what work they can do to help the ship. The ones that go to school meet the administrative requirements, but limitations on class sizes and dates make it hard to schedule schools around other operational commitments, and sometimes the schools make them more of a pump than a filter. As a result, the few qualified people doing NEC-required technical work may be overworked, which leads to maintenance management issues, especially when someone gets sick, hurt, or otherwise can't get everything done on time.

The list of issues goes on, but I think I made my point. We need to take a hard look in the mirror. All big organizations have problems, but we owe our country the best Navy out there. I'm proud of our leadership for taking an honest look at the community and realizing something wasn't right. I hope we get good policy and improvement out of each other so that we can better do our jobs.

All the best getting this figured out.

take care out there.

[DenverTaco07]

Originally Posted by jrhagen

These are big ass ships. How could they not see each other?

well, to a large extent the point of the warship is to see, but not be seen. At night warship is dark, totaly dark.

US warship also make provisions to reduce radar profile, but its not zero. we'll find out after investigation what occured from cargo ship perspective.

[ssrs2lt]

Yeah horrible news..My thoughts go out to the families..I thought the blur was in the navy! Appreciate u, your service and all who serve..

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by frankwjr

having served for 5 years in the USN I am afraid they will find them down in either the berthing compartments or engine space based on where the strike happened...and incompetency will and has been dealt with harshly(entire officer and upper enlisted were FIRED from the last ship!)

I am concerned if this was in fact an intentional ramming...

Even if it was intentional, the US ship should have been able to avoid it with relative ease. Tankers are not exactly quick or nimble.

So for it to be intentional, you still have the issue of how it spotted the destroyer without the destroyer spotting it.


It makes more sense that somehow, they failed to detect each other until it was too late.