[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

If he does mean a better coupe for visibility and luggage and zipping down to the golf course with your clubs then ok I can see that. I was generally interested because people say the same thing about all the Mustangs and I just disagree. I prefer performance and vented seats and the like over suitcase space.

I am fortunate enough to have multiple cars and I'll agree the Camaro isnt easy to DD. I dont DD drive mine in fact. I use a performance sedan for trips and taking the wife and friends out and if that is what they would use the 500 for (or any Mustang really) over the Camaro offerings then ok that's fair.

I DD mine but I alternate between all my vehicles. If there is rain, snow, severe weather, extreme cold, or I'm tired then I drive the SUV. If it is just a little rain and if I feel the need for a little extra room but still wanna go fast then I drive the HC. The ZL1 is my first choice when none of the other conditions are present. If I had to pick one and only one, then it would not be the ZL1. Practicality would force me to pick the SUV. But if it ever comes to that, then Trackhawk or X5M. My X5 has a 400 HP TT V8 but that would not be enough for me.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Stangmode just posted a counter video to the Throttlehouse video results crying about the gt500s and how the tires were the reason for everything.

I posted how the camaro didn't have the track alignment like the gt500 did, so they both had a strike going against them. I'm preparing for the shit storm of Ford and stangmode fan boys to come to the gt500s rescue lol.

I also posted how this video reminded me of his video where he, through a total lack of knowledge on the subject, misunderstaood a Ford rep discussing the parasitic losses of the supercharger and him putting his foot in his mouth thinking the gt500 was going to make 850 horsepower lol.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Stangmode just posted a counter video to the Throttlehouse video results crying about the gt500s and how the tires were the reason for everything.

I posted how the camaro didn't have the track alignment like the gt500 did, so they both had a strike going against them. I'm preparing for the shit storm of ford and s tangmode fan boys to come to the gt500s rescue lol.

I also posted how this video reminded me of his video where he, through a total lack of knowledge on the subject, misunderstaood a Ford rep discussing the parasitic losses of the supercharger and him putting his foot in his mouth thinking the gt500 was going to make 850 horsepower lol.

Well he just had to fix his differential cooler on his brand new GT500 and then have screws put in on the underbody where Ford just apparently skipped them.

I may have to go over there and read the excuses. I'm sure it will be entertaining.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Well he just had to fix his differential cooler on his brand new GT500 and then have screws put in on the underbody where Ford just apparently skipped them.

I may have to go over there and read the excuses. I'm sure it will be entertaining.

I saw that, just brushed it off as no big deal... hey every car can have parts fauilures and or screws improperly torqued at times, but the screws in the underpinnings missing? Come on lol

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by TreedYou

GM should get into aerospace next, Ford should discontinue the 100% failure GT500 (I mean does it even turn on!?) and we should all put more chocolate chips in our pancakes

FYSA... GM has been in the Aerospace Industry for over 50 years. Ford will keep building niche cars for the cars and coffee crowd and speculators.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Again, what's gonna happen now that GM has had all this time to devote to the next Gen Camaro while Ford was trying to correct issues with this current Gen? The Mustang is going to be trailing yet again. I get it that you don't mind because you won't be buying one and competition doesn't matter to you. But a lot of us think differently.

Here is what I'd like to see with the next-gen Camaro. Lose at min 150lbs on base model and add SLE-R and ZLE-R options with C7 carbon brakes, lighter wheel and tire package, optional DCT and carbon body panels, especially roof, hood, and trunk.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I saw that, just brushed it off as no big deal... hey every car can have parts fauilures and or screws improperly torqued at times, but the screws in the underpinnings missing? Come on lol

Yeah when I saw that I was in complete shock. I have never seen that on a vehicle before much less something like that.

[TreedYou]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Are you seriously not paying attention to anything bro? Maybe if you stopped spending your time following me around trolling me then you'd know. Geez.

https://www.slashgear.com/2020-musta...ease-14561779/

https://www.thextremexperience.com/b...iller-in-town/

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford...es-everything/




It makes me knowledgeable and well informed. I asked you several questions about why the GT500 is going poorly and can't beat cars like the ZL1, ZLE, and C8s despite the huge power and price difference. You haven't answered it. I made comments on what I believe are the reasons. You argued it. You brought nothing to the table except statements like "you're totes adorbs" and memes which is what I'd expect from a 16 year old girl instead of a grown man. So here we are and you still haven't brought up any ideas on what TF is wrong with the GT500.

Here's a thought. The S197 Mustangs were solid axle and therefore weighed less than the IRS equipped Camaros. Therefore the Mustangs were typically faster in all trims. GM put the Camaro out with phenomenal performance and then moved on to the 6th Gen. Ford then updated the Mustang in 2013 and it got faster. What happened after that? Ford put IRS on the 2015 S550 Mustangs and they gained weight. Now instead of developing the S550 properly and trying to improve upon the performance it had ending with the S197 in 2014, Ford just gave it 15 more HP and it got slower. They also tried to just ever so slightly beat the 5th Gen Z28 and ZL1. Which they did with the GT350 and GT350R. But as shaffe will tell you, that was short sighted on their part and they got caught with their pants down. By the time they looked up the 16 SS arrived and was beating the snot out of the PP1 and matching if not beating the 350.

Meanwhile GM developed the entire 6th Gen Camaro to be faster, more powerful, handle much better, and to be smaller and lighter. And it was a success. The 6th Gen Camaro SS matched the performance of the 5th Gen Z28/ZL1. The 6th Gen SLE took it a step further. GM then applied that same philosophy to the 17 ZL1 which resulted in a more powerful lighter smaller quicker faster ZL1. If the SS matched the best of the 5th Gen, then you could say the ZL1 doubled down and hit Blackjack. The ZL1 was pretty much unbeatable...and still is. A magazine from 3 years ago said that the Hellcat and GT500s would have no chances of beating the then current ZL1.

"Would the Shelby GT500 or Hellcat be able to keep up? No way. This thing freaking flies. Those Goodyears are not only remarkable, but the Camaro team also did a wondrous job with the ZL1's rearend, both lowering the roll center and making the familial electronic limited-slip differential (eLSD in GM speak) work better here than in any other application. This baby is a drift machine. Also, and quite importantly, the rear wheels have no problem putting down all the LT4's power. I tried several of the Performance Traction modes (Wet, Sport 1, Sport 2, Race), but I quickly realized that the ZL1 is so capable that turning off all nannies was the optimum way to roll."

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chev...e-squad-goals/

That is the difference between these cars and why the GT500 with all that mega power still can't beat the ZL1 from 3 years ago. GM built an entire car from the ground up to be the best in all three parameters...street, strip, track. Ford simply built a new Gen Mustang with some cool new features, 15 more HP, and IRS. Then they settled for attacking the Z28 in it's last year of production which was stupid. Because of all that Ford had to go back and re-do the entire Mustang so it could compete again. RP or someone said on a track that the SLE was world's apart (or something to that effect) from the PP1. In fact I think he said "it isn't even close". And that was I believe AFTER the 18 refresh. Ford had to again go back and develop the PP2 which overheated because yet again, they were not building an entire car around a purpose, they simply threw some parts at it. They had to re-do the Shelbys. The Bullitt was a swing and a miss. ANd that leads up to the GT500. They cut soo many corners with the GT500 even after 2 years of delays. Again their recipe was to just throw more HP at it. The dang car is unstable over 180 MPH...which if you know about suspension and chassis, a car that can go 200 MPH safely and be planted will always be better than one that can't. From what I understand it doesn't have eLSD. It is heavy as hell. At it's weight there is no way it will run consistently. And to combat the weight Ford simply threw CF stuff all over the damn place. Meanwhile the ZL1, ZLE, and C8s do not need CF anywhere.

This all goes back to what I have been trying to say. That the Camaros and Corvettes are more well developed than the Mustangs are. GM built their cars for a purpose and built the entire car so that the sum is greater than the parts. Remember when I said "Gestalt theory"? That is it in action. All alone the LT4 engine would not be a threat to the Hellcats and GT500s. But when put together around an entire car it is a monster. That is called synergy. Ford went the other route. They threw great parts around at a structure that cannot handle it. And those parts are not working well together. Which is why the C8 will dust it in the quarter mile, 0-60, and around anything but a straight-ass track. Which is why out of about 6 runs only 1 was a 10.7 and the others were not mentioned at all. Which is why magazines can't get the car in the high 10s if their lives depended on it. I bet, if they tried, they could get a C8 in the 10.9s...but I digress.

These points that you walk around here trying to argue with me about is why the GT500 is where it is. Behind. There is no way it shouldn't be able to beat the ZL1 at everything by a substantial difference. It should be up there with the ZR1. Imagine the ZR1 against the ZL1. That is what we should be seeing. The ZL1 stands no chance at anything against the ZR1. And at first when the GT500 was mentioned people thought the ZL1 would get destroyed in the quarter mile and that the CF would beat the standard ZL1. I remember saying I thought the ZL1 was going to be able to beat the Base AND CF 500 in the quarter mile and that it would beat both around a track. And so far the closest info we have has the standard ZL1 beating the CF around a track, in the quarter mile based on time, on a street with a quarter mile based on distance, top speed, all for $30K less. The only one stat where the CF 500 has won against the ZL1 is roll racing...up to 180 MPH.

Having said all that, how anyone can deny that the GT500 is not all they made it out to be is beyond me. Is it a fast car? Absolutely. On a track with prep and ideal conditions will it beat a ZL1? Absolutely. But for the price, time it took to build, and the HP difference, is it destroying any of it's competitors like it should? Far from it.

None of those links you sent me are Ford saying the GT500 is a super car killer
There is really nothing to answer here, how am I supposed to tell you how a car doesn't perform against another car. I didn't build it

All I know is that the GT500 from all test is a good performer in it's own right. Just because it doesn't beat another car by some metric doesn't change the fact that it actually does things well by itself.

The way you talk about the car it makes it seem like you couldn't even park it because of the POS it must be lol it's hilarious. I think you're a little upset you couldn't get your hands on one to be honest.. you sound like someone who couldn't get something so you bash it so you can feel better for not getting it. You can call it being "informed" all you want, you're obsessed with a car

I've never seen anybody so upset at an inanimate object, it's as if it personally slapped you in the face. Maybe you could build a car of your own since you're apparently an expert that is never wrong. The ZL1 is a beast, you still pretend like I said it's not though for some reason. Because I don't obsess over a car like you I must be some kind of enemy lol get a grip.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by TreedYou

None of those links you sent me are Ford saying the GT500 is a super car killer

Again, are you NOT paying attention? I never said FORD called it a "Supercar killer". I said "other cars it was supposed to kill". You questioned who said it and I posted three links. Those are the people who said it.

Originally Posted by TreedYou

There is really nothing to answer here, how am I supposed to tell you how a car doesn't perform against another car. I didn't build it

There is nothing to answer because you have no reply. You don't know much. You're someone who popped up on here trying to argue and you're in over your head.

Originally Posted by TreedYou

All I know is that the GT500 from all test is a good performer in it's own right. Just because it doesn't beat another car by some metric doesn't change the fact that it actually does things well by itself.

Yea, no shit Sherlock. That is only what we all have been saying for a while now. Which one of us did you copy that from this time? Sure, the Mustangs are great. If the Camaros weren't around then the Mustangs would be phenomenal. Keep them as far away from a Camaro as possible and you'll think it's the tits. But up against a Camaro is when you start to see how overpriced they are and just how badly they perform.

And actually, you're wrong. The fact that the GT500 can't beat the ZL1 or ZLE when all things are considered makes it a terrible car and a horrible performance value. The fact that you can't even admit it when even shaffe and other Mustang guys and everyone else (except your buddy Bradmo) has said the same thing is why I call you a Ford guy.

Originally Posted by TreedYou

The way you talk about the car it makes it seem like you couldn't even park it because of the POS it must be lol it's hilarious. I think you're a little upset you couldn't get your hands on one to be honest.. you sound like someone who couldn't get something so you bash it so you can feel better for not getting it. You can call it being "informed" all you want, you're obsessed with a car

Weak. Just stop...

Originally Posted by TreedYou

I've never seen anybody so upset at an inanimate object, it's as if it personally slapped you in the face. Maybe you could build a car of your own since you're apparently an expert that is never wrong. The ZL1 is a beast, you still pretend like I said it's not though for some reason. Because I don't obsess over a car like you I must be some kind of enemy lol get a grip.

Weak...

[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Not going to go back and cut through quotes but a lot of what Blaq said is spot on. I disagree with a few things but for most part he is right. GM went full performance with the Camaro 6. They built a performance car then shaped a coupe around it. That is why it is the better performing car. Ford built a better coupe then added performance to it, which is why it is not a better performing car.

Yeah for the most part, but see below...

Originally Posted by Chadicus

What makes the 500 a better coupe? Honest question. The CFTP doesn't even come with a back seat. Neither 500 comes with all the amenities that a standard ZL1 comes with. No vented seats, no convertible or sunroof option either. So what makes it better?

The other guys pretty much covered it. When it is easier for me to load my golf clubs through the passenger door instead of the trunk and I have to fold the rear seats down to get them in there, it sucks.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

If I had to pick one and only one, then it would not be the ZL1. Practicality would force me to pick the SUV. But if it ever comes to that, then Trackhawk or X5M. My X5 has a 400 HP TT V8 but that would not be enough for me.

How do you ever live with an SUV that doesn't go 181mph? This is where you will just get loud mouthed and type a novel to act like you are right, but you totally ignore me when i cite science, physics, and facts. You keep harping about the 180mph limiter on the GT500. Who said the car is unstable over 180? You are the only one as far as i know. You so conveniently ignored me when i pointed out that the GT500 will be soooooo far ahead of a ZL1 by the time it hits 180 that there is nowhere in the world besides your road course that the ZL1 will have time to catch up by going faster than 180.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Yup, he is right. You need to look no further than the fact they are neck and neck at basically everything, with the ZL1 being down 110 HP.

If they had the same HP, or even 50 more to the ZL1, the 500 would get pummeled at everything! THAT is proof that the platform is simply better. Lighter, stronger, more capable, and more planted.

The ZL1 is 3 years old and needs no updates to compete with Ford's newest and best ever Mustang. GM has moved on already in fact.

All that said, the 500 is a better coupe. I think it would be a great car to own for those that like DCT's or autos in their performance cars.

There it is. That is basically what it comes down. Weight. The GT500 weighs almost 400 pounds more than a base ZL1. I think that weight is because of going back and adding things that may or may not have been in the original plans.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

A few of the things I said are things you and I have disagreed on in the past. So I did not expect you to fully agree with me. But the difference between you and others is that you offer up counterpoints, data, info, and you do it in a way that we can go back and forth for days. Which is why I never called or considered you a troll...at least I don't think I ever did. If I did then it was probably a last resort in an attempt to get under your skin, lol!! I call these other guys trolls because they do the exact opposite. Even newmoon, although he can be troll-ish, I do not consider him 100% troll. I think he says things out of boredom and just to get a conversation going. I could be completely wrong tho. LOL!

Yep. I have always tried to argue things that I think can be argued with data, or at least things that aren't just opinion. Don't think you have ever called me a troll because for the most part I think I haven't gone the troll route when debates don't go my way. You and I have stayed civil and never went to personal attacks.

I won't lie there has been times I have said stuff just to poke the bear like newmoon does sometimes.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Anyway, we haven't had a good back and forth in a while. So what exactly do you disagree with?

.

It's stuff we have debated in the past, no need to really re hash it again but basically, the top speed stuff, cutting corners stuff. If it gets slow around here we can jump in the ring again with it haha

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I wonder if it was luck that GM stumbled across this chassis and it worked soo well or if they knew beforehand that this was the one. Because the 6th Gen is leaps and bounds above the 5th Gen. And that says a lot, because I thought the 5th Gen was phenomenal. I still do think it is amazing. I wouldn't hesitate to get a 5th Gen ZL1 and mod it to the moon and back!!

This car is honestly the epitome of what I think a performance car should be. It basically sits on the edge of just about every metric without tipping too far to either side. GM hit it out the park. And buying this car was the best car decision I ever made.

Hopefully someone smarter than us can chime in but I think with Zeta they just kind of made it work because that is what they had to work with. With alpha they knew from the beginning that the Camaro would be part of it so they were able to optimize a lot of stuff for Camaro vs with Zeta they had to make things work.

Originally Posted by Chadicus

If he does mean a better coupe for visibility and luggage and zipping down to the golf course with your clubs then ok I can see that. I was generally interested because people say the same thing about all the Mustangs and I just disagree. I prefer performance and vented seats and the like over suitcase space.

I am fortunate enough to have multiple cars and I'll agree the Camaro isnt easy to DD. I dont DD drive mine in fact. I use a performance sedan for trips and taking the wife and friends out and if that is what they would use the 500 for (or any Mustang really) over the Camaro offerings then ok that's fair.

This ^ Take away the badges, driving dynamics, performance all that stuff and just picture it as a coupe. If you were driving one everyday (base - high po variants) The mustang is easier to live with as a coupe. Bigger trunk, bigger trunk opening, visibility etc etc.

It's when you add in the performance and dynamics a lot of people can over look those things. For the people that aren't fortunate enough to have multiple vehicles they might not be able to over look it.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

How do you ever live with an SUV that doesn't go 181mph? This is where you will just get loud mouthed and type a novel to act like you are right, but you totally ignore me when i cite science, physics, and facts. You keep harping about the 180mph limiter on the GT500. Who said the car is unstable over 180? You are the only one as far as i know. You so conveniently ignored me when i pointed out that the GT500 will be soooooo far ahead of a ZL1 by the time it hits 180 that there is nowhere in the world besides your road course that the ZL1 will have time to catch up by going faster than 180.

Now you're just talking silliness. Tell you what, I'll do what I do. You just stick to whatever you do kid. Before you get eaten alive. Suffice to say, both my cars can go faster than 180 mph.

[TheRealJA105]

Well I was wrong on the loud mouthed part, but you clearly know I'm right AGAIN so you deflect and ignore with no discussion AGAIN...

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

Well I was wrong on the loud mouthed part, but you clearly know I'm right AGAIN so you deflect and ignore with no discussion AGAIN...

Lol!! Ok kid. How bout this. Since I'm a loudmouth. I'll keep you posted as I build up my ZL1. What do you have again? Keep me posted on yours...whatever it is you got. Call me a loudmouth when I'm done with what I'm doing. Heck I'll even take you for a spin.