[obzidian]

No need to worry...

The gt350r is also a low production vehicle which will, more than likely, carry a high sticker price.

The way i see.. this is what we'll get:

1. 1LE for everyday track folks. Similar to the SS but more track focused.

2. ZL1: LT4 car with hopefully enough power to stay competitive with the Hellcat and GT500.

3. Z28 low production, max effort "streetcar". The engine will/should be NA and if im not mistaken i believe Tag said they had a no frills NA LT1 engine. Hopefully something like that with a 7k rpm range to get to the 500hp+ range.

That is how i would do it if i was king!

[obzidian]

You cannot base the z28's success on sales alone. It was noted to be a low production unit anyways so what is the point.

The real story is that the z28 is that it time and time again has beaten cars on a race track that are much much faster in a straightline. The car is a track weapon and one that many (still doubt) doubted GM could produce out of a camaro.

The z28's success is the reason there even is a Gt350R. it is the General doing what it does best.... producing a car that rips up the competition, especially cars that cost 2 to 3 times as much.

So no... the z28 is not a failure, it is infact the very reason some auto manufactures arent sleeping well at night.

[NASTY99Z28]

What if they offered up a 500hp lt1 z/28 option but without the other spec only parts? Like a boss 302 was for ford. Maybe they could swap out cams for more rpm and a little less low end.

[SpeedIsLife]

Changing cams will require a whole new set of durability testing, EPA and SAE testing and certification..many millions of dollars.

Sure a cammed LT1 could easily hit 515+ HP but can it do that while meeting all of the previous requirements?

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Unless it failed to meet GM's targets, its hard to classify it as a failure. And GMs targets aren't necessarily limited to sales numbers of that model. If it nearly met their sales goal, but drastically exceeded their showroom traffic goal it would still be a success in GMs eyes. A halo car is about selling the entire lineup, not selling itself.

And GM doesn't have to wait until there is something beating the Camaro to greenlight something more. They know that there are people out there who want more than a regular SS, regardless of how good it is. If nothing else, those buyers will want to beat other Camaros.

No. The ZL1 was going to be a Z28 but the Camaro folks realized that it did not fit with what a Z28 should be, so they revived the ZL1 moniker and went to work on a track focused monster.


There isn't really any advantage in using the LF4 for the Z/28. Actually, in many ways its probably worse. Its heavier, the mass is located higher up, won't have the same sort of throttle response as an NA engine, susceptible to heat soak, likely costs substantially more. And for what, gaining 11 hp while losing 11 ft-lbs of torque?

I wouldn't put it past them to be working on something, either a spiritual successor to the gen III LS6 or the gen IV LS7 would make a lot of sense a mid-level engine in Camaros and Corvettes

The engine itself is a few grand more. The brakes are substantially more. The tires are an extra grand for a set themselves. The suspension ... It all adds up. If it isn't worth it to you, thats fine. It doesn't have to be. Thats why there was the SS (plus the 1LE package), the ZL1, and the Z/28 for the 5th gen. Different cars for different buyers.

The problem is that there is only a small market of people who want a super track star Camaro. GM could have watered it down and dropped the price by 30 grand and sold a lot more, but why bother? At that point, you've basically gotten down to a 1LE.

Ahhhhhhhhhh, relaxing in the brilliance. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Number 3]

So write this down.

There will be one of two possibilities. 1) GM has something very special in the wings for a Z/28 powertrain. LTx we'll call it. Something that make Ford embarrassed that they created a flat crank hand grenade or 2) GM uses the LT4 at 640/650 HP and looses about 200 to 300 pounds from the SS ANNNNNNNND adds CC brakes and Trofe tires.

This also assumes that GM has an LT4 powered Camaro that is actually standard weight PLUS the weight of the LT4 etc. to compete with the GT500.

So to remove 2 to 300 pounds will be a chore with a lot of what was done to the current Z/28 and what was done to the Malibu (arguably already done to the Camaro) and a crap load of Carbon Fiber and Magnesium and Aluminium.

[KaBoom1701]

Originally Posted by rmyers

Why would GM not install the same motor being used in the ATS-V for the Z/28? Its a twin turbo V6 and actually fits quite nicely in the historic theme of the 1st generation Z/28. That leaves the some variant of the LT4 for use in the ZL1.

If the Z/28 was a failure in sales figures, the failure was overestimating how many customers would buy one, but lets hope that GM does NOT stop pushing the bar. By all accounts it is an amazing performance car, competing with brands and models that it should not be.

So I think both Z's can exist. GM definitely has the platform and motors in place today to make it happen. The question is will there be enough of a market to support both? I think so. Thats one benefit of having components and platforms that can be shared across brands and models.

We already know the base car is 200lb lighter. How much lighter could the Z/28 be? Look at what the 5th gen Z/28 accomplished with the LS7. Older technology accomplishing great track times through brute force and some technical wizardry going on under the sheet metal. I personally hope the performance group at GM has some more surprises in store.

Worst case scenario, perhaps we will see 0% financing on the Z/28 If that hasn't already happened.

Ron

Winner!

[whiteboyblues2001]

The original Z/28 was designed to race SCCA's Trans Am series, and GM had to sell a certain number to the public. The class was limited to 5000cc (5.0L 305CID), so GM made a lower displacement race engine. It was smaller lighter and high revving.

Gen 5, and GM was going to call the ZL1 the Z/28, but realized that the ZL1 did not live up to the original heritage, and renamed it. That brought up the idea of an LS7 Z/28 true to it's heritage. But with those pricy components, I think the Z/28 lost market share to the cheaper ZL1 (which had lots more power and more everyday liveable).

In order to do this right, GM would do a LT4 ZL1. That's a no brainer. But the Z/28... l think you have to stay N/A to stay true to the heritage. A high revving LT1 variation with racing heads/cam/exhuast, etc. is a good argument to make. It could also be more competitively priced (with the ZL1). BUT, if GM goes that route, can the Gen6 Z/28 live up the Gen5?? Big questions.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Number 3

So write this down.

There will be one of two possibilities. 1) GM has something very special in the wings for a Z/28 powertrain. LTx we'll call it. Something that make Ford embarrassed that they created a flat crank hand grenade or 2) GM uses the LT4 at 640/650 HP and looses about 200 to 300 pounds from the SS ANNNNNNNND adds CC brakes and Trofe tires.

This also assumes that GM has an LT4 powered Camaro that is actually standard weight PLUS the weight of the LT4 etc. to compete with the GT500.

So to remove 2 to 300 pounds will be a chore with a lot of what was done to the current Z/28 and what was done to the Malibu (arguably already done to the Camaro) and a crap load of Carbon Fiber and Magnesium and Aluminium.

Dropping 2-300 lbs off the SS would put the LT4 Camaro right on top of the Z06 and GM will never let that happen, even if it was possible. Plus, people were bitching about a $75k Z/28. That car would clear 6 figures.

The most likely Z car is an LT4 powered Z/28 around 3950 lbs and set up like the 5th gen ZL1.

[OldJedi]

Originally Posted by obzidian

You cannot base the z28's success on sales alone. It was noted to be a low production unit anyways so what is the point.

The real story is that the z28 is that it time and time again has beaten cars on a race track that are much much faster in a straightline. The car is a track weapon and one that many (still doubt) doubted GM could produce out of a camaro.

The z28's success is the reason there even is a Gt350R. it is the General doing what it does best.... producing a car that rips up the competition, especially cars that cost 2 to 3 times as much.

So no... the z28 is not a failure, it is infact the very reason some auto manufactures arent sleeping well at night.

I completely agree with you and others, the Z28 was a success because GM was able to show that they can take a Camaro and have it compete very well with other major manufacturers, notably Porsche. Although the $75,000 price tag is high for a Camaro there is no other car (non Z06) that runs a track as well within an additional $50,000. Chevy was very honest and clear from the beginning when they said that the Z28 was a dedicated track car that would not be for everyone. Although the Z28 was not for me, the ZL1 was a perfect fit.

As for the the sixth gen. Camaro I found it remarkable that the 2016 SS is faster than the 2015 1LE with its ZL1 parts around the track. This holds a lot of promise for the next 1LE. I certainly believe that there will be ZL1 powered by the LT4 to compete against the GT 500 and the Hellcat. Naturally the SS with the LT1 to compete with the Mustang GT and Challenger. A lightened Z28 track car with a 550HP TT V6 is a compelling thought to compete against the GT-350. I am not sure a non V8 Z28 would make good business sense but it could make for a great track car. I really have no clue what Z28 GM has planned for the GT-350 but I do have total confidence that it will be a great competitor.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Unless it failed to meet GM's targets, its hard to classify it as a failure. And GMs targets aren't necessarily limited to sales numbers of that model. If it nearly met their sales goal, but drastically exceeded their showroom traffic goal it would still be a success in GMs eyes. A halo car is about selling the entire lineup, not selling itself.

And GM doesn't have to wait until there is something beating the Camaro to greenlight something more. They know that there are people out there who want more than a regular SS, regardless of how good it is. If nothing else, those buyers will want to beat other Camaros.

No. The ZL1 was going to be a Z28 but the Camaro folks realized that it did not fit with what a Z28 should be, so they revived the ZL1 moniker and went to work on a track focused monster.


There isn't really any advantage in using the LF4 for the Z/28. Actually, in many ways its probably worse. Its heavier, the mass is located higher up, won't have the same sort of throttle response as an NA engine, susceptible to heat soak, likely costs substantially more. And for what, gaining 11 hp while losing 11 ft-lbs of torque?

I wouldn't put it past them to be working on something, either a spiritual successor to the gen III LS6 or the gen IV LS7 would make a lot of sense a mid-level engine in Camaros and Corvettes

The engine itself is a few grand more. The brakes are substantially more. The tires are an extra grand for a set themselves. The suspension ... It all adds up. If it isn't worth it to you, thats fine. It doesn't have to be. Thats why there was the SS (plus the 1LE package), the ZL1, and the Z/28 for the 5th gen. Different cars for different buyers.

The problem is that there is only a small market of people who want a super track star Camaro. GM could have watered it down and dropped the price by 30 grand and sold a lot more, but why bother? At that point, you've basically gotten down to a 1LE.

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Dropping 2-300 lbs off the SS would put the LT4 Camaro right on top of the Z06 and GM will never let that happen, even if it was possible. Plus, people were bitching about a $75k Z/28. That car would clear 6 figures.

The most likely Z car is an LT4 powered Z/28 around 3950 lbs and set up like the 5th gen ZL1.

Yep it would be close in mass, but it wouldn't clear any more than the current Z/28.

My suggestion would be to simply take the $20,000 premium the Gen5 Z/28 has for the LS7 and put it into the low mass goodies.

And if the Corvette goes to mid-engine as is suspected, there would be no limitations would there? Hmmmmmmm?

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Yep it would be close in mass, but it wouldn't clear any more than the current Z/28.

My suggestion would be to simply take the $20,000 premium the Gen5 Z/28 has for the LS7 and put it into the low mass goodies.

And if the Corvette goes to mid-engine as is suspected, there would be no limitations would there? Hmmmmmmm?

How do you figure? The Z/28 didn't make any chassis changes. The weight was lost elsewhere. I can't imagine them dropping 200 lbs while adding in a heavier engine, heavier drive train, probably more cooling and not have to add some 0s to the MSRP.

IF the Corvette goes mid engine, a massive if, the rumors are that would just be the ZR1 for C7. Unless the C7 gen is very short, there would still be a C7 Z06 running around with a 6th gen Z**. There is no way GM would let an LT4 Camaro run around with a C7 Z06 while they weigh the same.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Yep it would be close in mass, but it wouldn't clear any more than the current Z/28.

My suggestion would be to simply take the $20,000 premium the Gen5 Z/28 has for the LS7 and put it into the low mass goodies.

And if the Corvette goes to mid-engine as is suspected, there would be no limitations would there? Hmmmmmmm?

Interesting idea. Low weight and bump up power of the LT1 with dry sump, CAI, etc..

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Number 3

So write this down.

There will be one of two possibilities. 1) GM has something very special in the wings for a Z/28 powertrain. LTx we'll call it. Something that make Ford embarrassed that they created a flat crank hand grenade or 2) GM uses the LT4 at 640/650 HP and looses about 200 to 300 pounds from the SS ANNNNNNNND adds CC brakes and Trofe tires.

This also assumes that GM has an LT4 powered Camaro that is actually standard weight PLUS the weight of the LT4 etc. to compete with the GT500.

So to remove 2 to 300 pounds will be a chore with a lot of what was done to the current Z/28 and what was done to the Malibu (arguably already done to the Camaro) and a crap load of Carbon Fiber and Magnesium and Aluminium.

an LT4 Camaro that weighs 2 or 300 pounds less than a presumably 37XX pound SS would either weigh the same or less than a Z06 I just don't see how that could happen.

I still think it would have to be a hotter LT1 ala LS1 to LS6. That I can see happening.

Corvette couldn't get the numbers they wanted in N/A but maybe they were gunning for something crazy.