[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

It’s interesting that I haven’t seen you post anything that mistakenly reflects poorly on EVs. All your mistakes fall in the same direction.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

It’s out there. You may not have seen it or you may have attributed it to someone else. There is bound to be more from me that is PRO-EV than ANTI-EV because in all honesty, most of the “factual issues” come from the “I hate EVs” crowd and so much of it is full of false information that it keeps me really busy. I’ll post a list of problems I have with EVs in a minute.

Alright, here we go…

What I don’t like about EVs [Product]:

• Some feel the need to fix what ain’t broke, seemingly just to be different for the sake of being different. Example…Tesla has recently removed turnstalks on some models, replacing them with turn signal buttons on the steering wheel. Dumb.
• In order to design for lowest production cost, many of them ignore serviceability of some major subsystems. Gigacastings. Repair costs will be ridiculous.
• Cost to replace the battery in the event of damage in an accident. Tesla in particular has made servicing their batteries at a cell level impossible. If the vehicle is in a collision and the battery box is breached, the whole thing needs to be replaced. Sure, insurance will cover it. But they might total out the car and then your rates go even higher.
• They tend to be heavy.
• Some of the really quirky designs.
• Some of the manufacturers cheaping out on interior to offset cost of batteries.
• Haven’t seen an affordable, sporty looking, high performing model yet. A number of “2 outta 3” examples but not a 3 outta 3. Model 3 Performance is affordable and high performing, but it looks like a family sedan. So did the Chevrolet SS. The Porsche Taycan and Lotus Evija both look sporty and are high performing but not my idea of affordable. I could go on and on with examples. An EV Camaro could sort all that out.

What I don’t like about EVs [Transition]

• CARB ZEV Mandate. If you were to look at my posts from a year ago, maybe a year and a half, I was saying that the 2035 CARB ZEV Mandate was an Executive Order, not law, because the California governor cannot make law. Only the Legislature can make law. So I doubted it would happen. Then it did. Guess I was wrong. Still, it’s not effective until 11 years from now and can change by then. There have been several CARB ZEV Mandates dating back to the ‘90s. And they’ve all changed over time.
• EV manufacturers exaggerating performance and range claims, then backing off when the vehicle finally comes to market.
• Lack of overnight charging options for people in multi-family housing. It’s the primary reason for me recommending NOT buying an EV to a lot of people that ask what EV would be best for them. If you don’t have a garage or at least a driveway where you can install a charger, you probably shouldn’t buy an EV.

What’s NOT on my list and why

• Range anxiety: After owning Chevrolet Volts since 2012 I know that my family’s driving habits won’t come anywhere near draining the battery on any given day. The 260 mile range (80% charge) in our Model Y can last about a week even if we don’t plug in for several days.
• Cold weather performance. Again, Volt. Summer the EV range was 53 miles. Almost never triggered the gas engine. Winter it was down to 38 miles, so I know to expect less range. If 260 miles translates to 170 in cold weather it is still more than sufficient.
• Fear of battery replacement cost (age). 8-year warranty is long enough to cover it for me. By the time I need to replace the battery out of pocket, if ever, costs will be on par with an engine / transmission replacement.
• Price. If something is priced out of my range I don’t buy it. I’d love to have a Porsche Taycan or Lucid Air or a C8 Z06 convertible. All priced beyond what I’d pay for them. Nexxxt.

[Martinjlm]

Forgot one and it’s a biggie.

• I HATE that certain companies can experiment with their customer base by beta testing technologies that can impact the safe driving of the vehicle. Specifically, Tesla “Full Self Driving” which is exactly NOT that. On the other hand, I’m impressed that they actually get a substantial number of people to pay <gulp> $12,000<gulp> for the right to be a test dummy AND they maintain the right to deny you access to it if you are using it incorrectly.

This is more an issue with how the company chooses to do business and theoretically could also be done with an ICE vehicle, just nobody else has bothered to try anything so brazen.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Forgot one and it’s a biggie.

• I HATE that certain companies can experiment with their customer base by beta testing technologies that can impact the safe driving of the vehicle. Specifically, Tesla “Full Self Driving” which is exactly NOT that. On the other hand, I’m impressed that they actually get a substantial number of people to pay <gulp> $12,000<gulp> for the right to be a test dummy AND they maintain the right to deny you access to it if you are using it incorrectly.

This is more an issue with how the company chooses to do business and theoretically could also be done with an ICE vehicle, just nobody else has bothered to try anything so brazen.

I don't necessarily mind the "beta" testing aspect.

Where it does cross the line is the cost of it and the false advertising, gross exaggerations, etc.

I know the text and other legal material always stress you need to be ready to take over at any time, but then you have Musk run his mouth saying it's perfect and overstate the current capabilities of the system. This leads to people to be complacent and not be ready. And on the extreme side you have the cases of people sleeping.

Of course it also doesn't transfer to the new car so it is $12,000 again. And Tesla is walking back claims that improvements in the hardware to make FSD work better will be a free retrofit. So despite HW4 having improvements that will make FSD supposedly work better, Tesla is claiming HW3 is still good enough to have FSD work the same way as it would with a car with HW4.

I want a viable alternative to Tesla's. But for me and when it comes time to replace my Model 3 and I had to choose based on today's offerings, it would be the highland Model 3 despite the decontenting. Hyundai's don't appeal to me, VW's and Ford's offerings are junk. Rivian and Lucid is way out of my price range and are still in a state Tesla was in 10 years ago in terms of support and service. GM's products on paper are good, but are proving to be bug filled.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Capricio

Yeah, but... at least it stopped inflation, or something, right?...

Since you asked…

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

What’s NOT on my list and why

• Range anxiety: After owning Chevrolet Volts since 2012 I know that my family’s driving habits won’t come anywhere near draining the battery on any given day. The 260 mile range (80% charge) in our Model Y can last about a week even if we don’t plug in for several days.
• Cold weather performance. Again, Volt. Summer the EV range was 53 miles. Almost never triggered the gas engine. Winter it was down to 38 miles, so I know to expect less range. If 260 miles translates to 170 in cold weather it is still more than sufficient.
• Fear of battery replacement cost (age). 8-year warranty is long enough to cover it for me. By the tim I need to replace the battery out of pocket, if ever, costs will be on par with an engine / transmission replacement.

A 40% reduction in range in temps below 20 degrees F is a huge impact to people in northern and midwestern states where distance and temperatures can be "extreme".


Take a 2018 Tesla Model 3 with 175,000 miles and a 2008 Buick LaCrosse with an L26 3800 also with 175,000 (+10 years). Which one will make it to 250,000 with the least amount of trouble?


Where I live, the climate is perfect for preserving car bodies. Many people here run well maintained cars well into 400,000+ miles before a the power train finally has a catastrophic failure. Show me an EV capable of attaining this kind of longevity and not ending up in a landfill after around 150k. I feel you're marginalizing/underestimating the longevity that many ICE platforms have attained and just handwaved it as being "about the same, anyways" in comparison to EVs.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by Capricio

A 40% reduction in range in temps below 20 degrees F is a huge impact to people in northern and midwestern states where distance and temperatures can be "extreme".


Take a 2018 Tesla Model 3 with 175,000 miles and a 2008 Buick LaCrosse with an L26 3800 also with 175,000 (+10 years). Which one will make it to 250,000 with the least amount of trouble?

EV's with heat pumps perform better in the winter.

I have seen ~20% hit in my efficiency in the winter with my Model 3 LR with the heat pump.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Since you asked…

Notwithstanding the name, I don’t think anyone, even you, believes that its main purpose was to reduce inflation. The whole thing is over reaching, manipulating the marketplace, and was given to the public under false pretenses. You'll have a hard time rationalizing how massive spending and increasing the money supply helps control inflation, while leaving out the fact interest rates were raised by over 3X. So, I guess we'll see eggs around $1/dozen again, thanks to federal EV graft?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Capricio

A 40% reduction in range in temps below 20 degrees F is a huge impact to people in northern and midwestern states where distance and temperatures can be "extreme".

You’re preaching to the choir. I have always lived in areas where the climate is tough on cars. Not just the body (rustbelt is an earned name) but on the systems that make the cars go and stop. I live in Detroit and as I type this it has warmed up from 8 degrees when I got up to 15 degrees right now. I often travel to Buffalo and I think we all know what the weather is like there. Both cities border with Canada, so when I make the trip 95%+ of my trip is through Canada, the great white north. I have no issues taking the Tesla on that trip. The car shows me where all the Supercharger stations are, what power they’re operating at, and how many stalls are unooccupied. They also tell me how long I’ll need to stay to get charged to the level I want it charged. Usually 10 - 35 minutes.

When I’m done typing this I’ll jump in the Model Y that is currently showing me 260 miles of range and I’ll head to Costco and stuff the tailgate full of random stuff. I’ll come back home and plug it back in. That’s a round trip of 19 miles. Because of the cold and some highway driving speeds I’ll probably actually use about 25 miles for the round trip. I have a feeling that I’ll make it just fine. And when I’m ready to go somewhere else I will start with 260 miles available to me. If it winds up being actual 170 but I’m only driving 20 miles here, 50 miles there it’s not a concern at all.

Originally Posted by Capricio

Take a 2018 Tesla Model 3 with 175,000 miles and a 2008 Buick LaCrosse with an L26 3800 also with 175,000 (+10 years). Which one will make it to 250,000 with the least amount of trouble?

Where I live, the climate is perfect for preserving car bodies. Many people here run well maintained cars well into 400,000+ miles before a the power train finally has a catastrophic failure. Show me an EV capable of attaining this kind of longevity and not ending up in a landfill after around 150k. I feel you're marginalizing/underestimating the longevity that many ICE platforms have attained and just handwaved it as being "about the same, anyways" in comparison to EVs.

I don’t think either one of us can reliably predict that, but I’ll give my analysis based on my experience. I can say that the Tesla won’t need oil changes, or exhaust repair, and will most likely need a lot less in terms of brake system repair. Your question would then center around what is more reliable, a 3800 and it’s 4T60e transmission or the Tesla battery pack and the two electric motors that provide the power to my wheels. Having spent years building GM’s remanufacturing program for the 4T60e and other transmissions I can tell you for certain 4T60e is NOT bulletproof. I’m being kind. Definitely less reliable than electric motors and more expensive to repair. The 3800 is actually very near bulletproof. One of the most durable engines I’ve had experience with during the time I spent as Powertrain Service Operations Director. On the other hand, Tesla’s battery packs have held up quite well in the 12 years or so that they’ve been used in the Model S, so I’ll give engine vs battery pack a tie. So, based on the reliability differences of the 4T60e vs electric motors, I’d give the slight edge to the Tesla. I think you would have to agree that my analysis is a lot more than a handwave.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Capricio

Notwithstanding the name, I don’t think anyone, even you, believes that its main purpose was to reduce inflation. The whole thing is over reaching, manipulating the marketplace, and was given to the public under false pretenses. You'll have a hard time rationalizing how massive spending and increasing the money supply helps control inflation, while leaving out the fact interest rates were raised by over 3X. So, I guess we'll see eggs around $1/dozen again, thanks to federal EV graft?

Have you actually read the entire Inflation Reduction Act? I have. I have to because as an automotive consultant I have to be able to explain to my clients what it is, how it works, and how it can impact their product strategies. I have clients that have changed where they intend to produce EVs that they will sell in the US to move production to North America in order to qualify for the incentive. Sam for battery manufacturers. That’s jobs for the workers that will be employed in the US, Canada and Mexico. Jobs help reduce inflation.

I have clients who are actively working deals to change where they get the minerals to make the batteries that go into their EVs so that they can qualify. This means lower reliance on China for minerals and less reliance on cobalt and manganese that are in many places (but not all) mined with child labor.

On other fronts, the IRA has reduced the price of insulin from several hundred dollars a month to a cap of $35 a month for people whose lives depend on it. I’m pretty sure most of us know somebody who uses insulin, because diabetes is a silent epidemic in this country. That’s a huge change in available spending power for people so afflicted.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Since you asked…

That is like if I set your house on fire then call the fire department to save what is left of it I'm a hero

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

…

When I’m done typing this I’ll jump in the Model Y that is currently showing me 260 miles of range and I’ll head to Costco and stuff the tailgate full of random stuff. I’ll come back home and plug it back in. That’s a round trip of 19 miles. Because of the cold and some highway driving speeds I’ll probably actually use about 25 miles for the round trip. I have a feeling that I’ll make it just fine. And when I’m ready to go somewhere else I will start with 260 miles available to me. If it winds up being actual 170 but I’m only driving 20 miles here, 50 miles there it’s not a concern at all.

…

So I’ve made the Costco trip and back. Turns out that 9.5 miles is as the crow flies. Actual miles driven is 15.5 miles each way. So a total of 31 miles, not the 19 I said earlier. Driving that 31 miles burned 53 miles of range. This is at air temperature 15 degrees when I left, 19 degrees by the time I got home.

I left home with 260 miles of range and returned with 207 miles of range. Highway speeds were my typical 75-80 mph. It consumed 11 kWh out of an 81 kWh battery charged to 80%, so roughly 64 kWh, minus the 11 used leaves me with 53kWh.

Average energy usage for the trip was 352 Wh/mile. That’s compared to our normal usage of 336 Wh/mile so roughly 5% more energy per mile. I’m thinking that these measures are energy usage at the motors only and not taking into account the extra energy draw for heating the cabin. The drop off in total range is more than 5%. More like around 40%.

So now I’m home, plugged in. Later when it’s time to go pick up my son at the airport I’ll leave the house with 260 miles of range.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

So I’ve made the Costco trip and back. Turns out that 9.5 miles is as the crow flies. Actual miles driven is 15.5 miles each way. So a total of 31 miles, not the 19 I said earlier. Driving that 31 miles burned 53 miles of range. This is at air temperature 15 degrees when I left, 19 degrees by the time I got home.

I left home with 260 miles of range and returned with 207 miles of range. Highway speeds were my typical 75-80 mph. It consumed 11 kWh out of an 81 kWh battery charged to 80%, so roughly 64 kWh, minus the 11 used leaves me with 53kWh.

Average energy usage for the trip was 352 Wh/mile. That’s compared to our normal usage of 336 Wh/mile so roughly 5% more energy per mile. I’m thinking that these measures are energy usage at the motors only and not taking into account the extra energy draw for heating the cabin. The drop off in total range is more than 5%. More like around 40%.

So now I’m home, plugged in. Later when it’s time to go pick up my son at the airport I’ll leave the house with 260 miles of range.

The 260 miles it shows is based off its 276 wh/mi EPA rating and the battery power available. So your normal 336 wh/mi consumption would already result in less range than it is showing.

Tesla’s range guess o meter on the top of the screen sucks that way in it doesn’t adjust based off your driving habits/style and consumption that results. The energy app will show an estimated range based on current consumption though.

It’s why the common advice is to have the display show percentage instead of miles.

[genxer]

Someone in West by-God Virginia listed an inherited 3rd gen on fb market, wants it sold, and has no idea that it's a 1LE. Feed a sudden trip like that into the computer.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by genxer

Someone in West by-God Virginia listed an inherited 3rd gen on fb market, wants it sold, and has no idea that it's a 1LE. Feed a sudden trip like that into the computer.

Good luck with that. Hope you’re able to snag it.