[Wolvie70]

Wonder what it would be like if we saved judgement for after seeing the final product?

[fastball]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

modifying cars is why the pony car exists. They were under-powered or under-engineered in various areas so they could be accessible to poorer people and then could be built up to be awesome by those who had the money and/or skill to do so and embarrass more expensive cars on the road and on the track (usually just the straight ones though).

Whether it's the outside or the inside. If you're not modifying your car in some way then in my mind, i dont know why you bought a camaro.

At the same time though, these latest generations of camaro aren't really following the spirit of pony cars anymore. They're too expensive because they're too good and so modifications have less applicability. Unfortunately, selling cars that dont compete with the market just to make them cheaper doesn't work for the demographics that would buy them anymore it seems. And i guess that attracts a different kind of buyer that just wants to lease and keep everything the way it is. meh.

Your 1972 idea of the Camaro would not sell a single car today. Under-powered and under-engineered would sit on lots and collect rust. Not just dust. Rust. Because they'd sit there for years. In case you've missed the last 20 years of the automobile industry, where GM and Fiatsler had to file for bankruptcy and Ford mortgaged everything down to the pencil sharpeners, every car a company builds has to be modern, high quality, high technology,and well engineered. That's not my opinion, that is a fact.


Now, I drive about 20k miles/yr. I've never leased and never will. One of the reasons I bought the Camaro in the first place is BECAUSE it's so good off the showroom floor.

If I was going to invest all the money for aftermarket parts I'd have just stepped up and gotten the 1LE package, or better yet the ZL1.

But I can't stand swoopy or angular tacked on spoilers and trim. Even the "best" or "most expensive" just screams JC Whitney to me.

Performance, yes, tune it up, but tune it up right. Again, going overboard screams JC Whitney. The Camaro isn't for the dudes in ripped jeans blasting their Poison cassettes anymore. It's 2017 and the Camaro is all grown up. It can turn and stop now too!

[SSTony]

I wonder if this will come with a blinking license plate frame and Dice on the mirror.

[CorySS]

It'll be way heavier than a ZL1 1le because the glass there using. The ZL1 1le has thinner glass. If they want to make a winner more power, better suspension, lighter weight, A10 done deal

[prod]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

modifying cars is why the pony car exists. They were under-powered or under-engineered in various areas so they could be accessible to poorer people and then could be built up to be awesome by those who had the money and/or skill to do so and embarrass more expensive cars on the road and on the track (usually just the straight ones though).

Whether it's the outside or the inside. If you're not modifying your car in some way then in my mind, i dont know why you bought a camaro.

At the same time though, these latest generations of camaro aren't really following the spirit of pony cars anymore. They're too expensive because they're too good and so modifications have less applicability. Unfortunately, selling cars that dont compete with the market just to make them cheaper doesn't work for the demographics that would buy them anymore it seems. And i guess that attracts a different kind of buyer that just wants to lease and keep everything the way it is. meh.

I think that still exists today, but not in the V8 price range. BRZ/86 is a good example, but they still don't sell.

[gpskinzhut]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

modifying cars is why the pony car exists. They were under-powered or under-engineered in various areas so they could be accessible to poorer people and then could be built up to be awesome by those who had the money and/or skill to do so and embarrass more expensive cars on the road and on the track (usually just the straight ones though).

Whether it's the outside or the inside. If you're not modifying your car in some way then in my mind, i dont know why you bought a camaro.

At the same time though, these latest generations of camaro aren't really following the spirit of pony cars anymore. They're too expensive because they're too good and so modifications have less applicability. Unfortunately, selling cars that dont compete with the market just to make them cheaper doesn't work for the demographics that would buy them anymore it seems. And i guess that attracts a different kind of buyer that just wants to lease and keep everything the way it is. meh.

Power and engineering were par for the period given the price point and regulations. Had nothing to do with catering to the poor or providing a base for modification to push the car to it's potential.

You're pigeonholing the car the same way V8 die-hards do by saying "A Camaro shouldn't have anything but an 8". Neither statements are true. And judging by what some of the unmolested all original cars go for at Barrett Jackson / Mecum, I'd say that not modifying your car has plenty of benefits.

They are in the same vein as they've always been. My '87 stickered for close to 20k, which is over 40k at today's dollar. The price isn't as ludicrous as people make it out to be, but the performance for what you pay is leaps and bounds above anywhere its ever been. They still have plenty of aftermarket support and there's a strong customization and performance community. Nothing has changed.

[cellsafemode]

I said it wouldn't sell these days the way i was talking about.

But I also dont think you can just adjust for inflation and say it's basically the same price as today. The amount of disposable income over cost of housing and necessities is not the same as it was in the 70's, 80,s and even into the 90's. So while dollar for dollar the car may be on point with today's prices, the expense wasn't as costly to the consumer and there was a much larger portion of the population with that amount of income to buy such cars than there is today. Not that this is the only reason why people aren't falling over to buy the camaro, but it's a pretty big one.

Modified cars almost never go for more money than non-modified, that's pretty will established. I dont buy cars to sell them though, so i dont care. A major part of getting a camaro is playing with it. If you're not into that, then you're missing out and i still find it odd that you'd pick a camaro just to keep it stock. But my point was that the entire demographic has shifted because the car leaves little to improve for anyone on a budget. Which has been traditionally the niche for pony cars. Which is sad because what now fills that gap for US cars? As mentioned above, it's imports. But maybe the entire genre of car modifying is dying a slow death due to regulations and european influence - the US and australia and maybe japan are the only ones that basically still modify cars.

edit: another factor may be that used cars are holding their value longer because cars just last so much longer than they did back in the 80's. Keeping them out of the price range of younger car buyers or as secondary cars for projects for much longer than they used to. But i think it's really more of a shift from people even knowing how to work on cars and do things themselves on top of a change in perception to looking down on diy as ghetto ...that just didn't exist a couple decades ago.

[chrisvr6]

Originally Posted by Hock23

what i see is, some 6le design parts on a zl1

[keon718nyc]

Originally Posted by chrisvr6

what i see is, some 6le design parts on a zl1

Exactly, all that it is!

[trboxman]

A genuinely attractive woman doesn't need 6lbs of whore spackle to look good, neither does a genuinely good performance car...

[z28pat]

I like that 6le designs started with a camaro \ f body enthusiast and he's got some cool pieces, i.e. 4th gen area top, so ill hold my opinion until I see the final product. Can't believe GM let someone buy the iroc z moniker though!

[Factorypilot]

Originally Posted by trboxman

A genuinely attractive woman doesn't need 6lbs of whore spackle to look good, neither does a genuinely good performance car...

[ZED SLED]

Originally Posted by trboxman

A genuinely attractive woman doesn't need 6lbs of whore spackle to look good, neither does a genuinely good performance car...

I see you've met my ex-wife

[Lazerbrainz2k3]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

I said it wouldn't sell these days the way i was talking about.

But I also dont think you can just adjust for inflation and say it's basically the same price as today. The amount of disposable income over cost of housing and necessities is not the same as it was in the 70's, 80,s and even into the 90's. So while dollar for dollar the car may be on point with today's prices, the expense wasn't as costly to the consumer and there was a much larger portion of the population with that amount of income to buy such cars than there is today. Not that this is the only reason why people aren't falling over to buy the camaro, but it's a pretty big one.

Modified cars almost never go for more money than non-modified, that's pretty will established. I dont buy cars to sell them though, so i dont care. A major part of getting a camaro is playing with it. If you're not into that, then you're missing out and i still find it odd that you'd pick a camaro just to keep it stock. But my point was that the entire demographic has shifted because the car leaves little to improve for anyone on a budget. Which has been traditionally the niche for pony cars. Which is sad because what now fills that gap for US cars? As mentioned above, it's imports. But maybe the entire genre of car modifying is dying a slow death due to regulations and european influence - the US and australia and maybe japan are the only ones that basically still modify cars.

edit: another factor may be that used cars are holding their value longer because cars just last so much longer than they did back in the 80's. Keeping them out of the price range of younger car buyers or as secondary cars for projects for much longer than they used to. But i think it's really more of a shift from people even knowing how to work on cars and do things themselves on top of a change in perception to looking down on diy as ghetto ...that just didn't exist a couple decades ago.

It's not just inflation, you should also adjust for the value of the additional safety & tech consumers have long since been demanding in even the most entry-level vehicles.

Also, there's the performance you're getting for your money - even compared to the '90s, the cheapest and least powerful Camaro of today can out-perform the most expensive V8 Z28's of that era. If it's all about the number of cylinders to you, then yes, today's V8s are outside the reasonable & financially semi-responsible reach of most young people today, but the smaller engine trims are reasonably priced versus inflation, and the performance those smaller engines provide is a big step up compared to what you got in the '90s (especially since even then, most people were getting the base trim and accompanying V6).

Furthermore, with a turbo four as the cheapest engine option , which offers the most potential for (relatively) cheap power gains, in line with the mods so many other young people are known to show interest in these days. No, you can't manually adjust the timing with simple hand tools like in the old days, but the young have found other things to adjust, and seem to enjoy it just fine.

As for the notion that "if you're not modding why buy a Camaro?", that's right up there with "if you're not buying a V8 why buy a Camaro?" My last Camaro was a 2010 V6 which I lightly modded for kicks, but now that I've got an SS I've got more performance than I could ever reasonably use on the street, so why bother modding this one? Insisting that your reasons for owning and how (whether it's about cylinders or tinkering) must necessarily be everyone else's as well is awfully arrogant.