[Number 3]

Originally Posted by ssrs396

I see what you are saying and I think you are right but I believe if you can seduce entry level buyers into your brand you will win in the long run.

You are absolutely correct on that. You have to 1) get them in the showroom, 2) get them to buy and 3) treat them like kings and queens for service maintenance and any dealer experience and 4) have a car with great initial and long term quality (JD Power Initial and Long Term (3 years) quality data is a good measure).

But this doesn't start with a sporty coupe. We are on this site and that's where our head is at. It starts with Spark/Sonic/Cruze. And those are volume cars that can make a big impact if you hit ALL of points 1 through 4. Those folks will then buy sporty or family or business or pleasure vehicles throughout their lives.

But look at the number of people here that own a Camaro but other non Chevrolet, non GM vehicles. Brand loyalty is very hard to come by these days.

So look beyond wanting a cheaper sporty/performance car. Look at a portfolio of great cars. As Chevrolet sells more and more, that will create room in the showroom for all kinds of wonderful things.

[ssrs396]

Originally Posted by Number 3

You are absolutely correct on that. You have to 1) get them in the showroom, 2) get them to buy and 3) treat them like kings and queens for service maintenance and any dealer experience and 4) have a car with great initial and long term quality (JD Power Initial and Long Term (3 years) quality data is a good measure).

But this doesn't start with a sporty coupe. We are on this site and that's where our head is at. It starts with Spark/Sonic/Cruze. And those are volume cars that can make a big impact if you hit ALL of points 1 through 4. Those folks will then buy sporty or family or business or pleasure vehicles throughout their lives.

But look at the number of people here that own a Camaro but other non Chevrolet, non GM vehicles. Brand loyalty is very hard to come by these days.

So look beyond wanting a cheaper sporty/performance car. Look at a portfolio of great cars. As Chevrolet sells more and more, that will create room in the showroom for all kinds of wonderful things.

1) get them in the showroom.........Exactly! and what better way then to introduce a great looking, fun, sporty car, light on the wallet and full of excitement....and then you sell the young family the cruze or Malibu and leave the sporty car for me and young non family adults.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by ssrs396

1) get them in the showroom.........Exactly! and what better way then to introduce a great looking, fun, sporty car, light on the wallet and full of excitement....and then you sell the young family the cruze or Malibu and leave the sporty car for me and young non family adults.

That will only get a very small number of people into the showroom. Volumes for this car would be low. First, coupes don't sell well at all and then by the time you get your $19,999 miracle coupe (cuz I don't know how to get you what you want for that price hence the miracle) and add some options you are now at the price of the bigger and nicer 2.0T Camaro. And you just lost a sale on the entry level car.

I understand what you guys want. I also understand what it takes to get that car and the impacts of it.

Name a car that anyone makes that fits your $20,000 price point, is RWD (an absolute must according to some) and is actually sporty (meaning good brakes and suspension) and an even remotely decent interior.

Focus ST is $24,000 (FWD)
Subaru BRZ is $25,700 (RWD)
Scion FR-S is $26,100
Mazda MX-5 $24,900 (RWD)
Hyundai Genesis $26,750 (RWD)

Honda zip
Nissan nada
FCA nothing yet but maybe the shared Mazda platform will result in something

Look back in history and look at the Solstice/Sky. A $19,900 convertible. It was incredible that GM could get a reasonably fun convertible for that kind of money. But it had the worst interior of recent history in the entire automobile world and could be priced well into the $30,000 range.

So whatever car you come up with you will either have a large overlap in price with the Camaro or you will have to limit the options to avoid that and end up with a car that has very limited appeal for being base level only.

It can be done, might be done, but it will be very hard to do without pulling sales from the Camaro and even a 2.0T Cruze if that ever happens. A 2.0T Cruze will likely price out at $24,000 to $25,000.

And I doubt the BRZ/FR-S are bring lots of young buyers into those showrooms. I'd like to see that data. It exists at those OEMs, but likely never to be shared.

[ParisTNDude]

This code 130R was a running concept a couple years ago. Wondering what happened to it? This thing with a turbo 2.5 liter 4 or a turbo V6 would be dynamite. This could weigh around 3K lbs, and with nice wheels and tires, Manual or the 8 speed...I would buy one in a heart beat.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Number 3

That will only get a very small number of people into the showroom. Volumes for this car would be low. First, coupes don't sell well at all and then by the time you get your $19,999 miracle coupe (cuz I don't know how to get you what you want for that price hence the miracle) and add some options you are now at the price of the bigger and nicer 2.0T Camaro. And you just lost a sale on the entry level car.

I understand what you guys want. I also understand what it takes to get that car and the impacts of it.

Name a car that anyone makes that fits your $20,000 price point, is RWD (an absolute must according to some) and is actually sporty (meaning good brakes and suspension) and an even remotely decent interior.

Focus ST is $24,000 (FWD)
Subaru BRZ is $25,700 (RWD)
Scion FR-S is $26,100
Mazda MX-5 $24,900 (RWD)
Hyundai Genesis $26,750 (RWD)

Honda zip
Nissan nada
FCA nothing yet but maybe the shared Mazda platform will result in something

Look back in history and look at the Solstice/Sky. A $19,900 convertible. It was incredible that GM could get a reasonably fun convertible for that kind of money. But it had the worst interior of recent history in the entire automobile world and could be priced well into the $30,000 range.

So whatever car you come up with you will either have a large overlap in price with the Camaro or you will have to limit the options to avoid that and end up with a car that has very limited appeal for being base level only.

It can be done, might be done, but it will be very hard to do without pulling sales from the Camaro and even a 2.0T Cruze if that ever happens. A 2.0T Cruze will likely price out at $24,000 to $25,000.

And I doubt the BRZ/FR-S are bring lots of young buyers into those showrooms. I'd like to see that data. It exists at those OEMs, but likely never to be shared.

Exactly what I have been saying in the past couple of posts. $24k is the start of the truly sporty market. Inflation, safety/emissions, and consumer demand for better features/interior mean that anything under that is simply not practical. People should also stop comparing sale price to msrp. Apples to apples.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[ssrs396]

Originally Posted by Number 3

That will only get a very small number of people into the showroom. Volumes for this car would be low. First, coupes don't sell well at all and then by the time you get your $19,999 miracle coupe (cuz I don't know how to get you what you want for that price hence the miracle) and add some options you are now at the price of the bigger and nicer 2.0T Camaro. And you just lost a sale on the entry level car.

I understand what you guys want. I also understand what it takes to get that car and the impacts of it.

Name a car that anyone makes that fits your $20,000 price point, is RWD (an absolute must according to some) and is actually sporty (meaning good brakes and suspension) and an even remotely decent interior.

Focus ST is $24,000 (FWD)
Subaru BRZ is $25,700 (RWD)
Scion FR-S is $26,100
Mazda MX-5 $24,900 (RWD)
Hyundai Genesis $26,750 (RWD)

Honda zip
Nissan nada
FCA nothing yet but maybe the shared Mazda platform will result in something

Look back in history and look at the Solstice/Sky. A $19,900 convertible. It was incredible that GM could get a reasonably fun convertible for that kind of money. But it had the worst interior of recent history in the entire automobile world and could be priced well into the $30,000 range.

So whatever car you come up with you will either have a large overlap in price with the Camaro or you will have to limit the options to avoid that and end up with a car that has very limited appeal for being base level only.

It can be done, might be done, but it will be very hard to do without pulling sales from the Camaro and even a 2.0T Cruze if that ever happens. A 2.0T Cruze will likely price out at $24,000 to $25,000.

And I doubt the BRZ/FR-S are bring lots of young buyers into those showrooms. I'd like to see that data. It exists at those OEMs, but likely never to be shared.

Find New Roads!

[ssrs396]

Originally Posted by ParisTNDude

This code 130R was a running concept a couple years ago. Wondering what happened to it? This thing with a turbo 2.5 liter 4 or a turbo V6 would be dynamite. This could weigh around 3K lbs, and with nice wheels and tires, Manual or the 8 speed...I would buy one in a heart beat.Attachment 740884

This is exactly what I am taking about. This would be a great coupe. The styling is not bad but I would like to see something a little more aggressive/edgy but the idea is solid.

[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Oh and $27,000 in 2009 is $24,100. A brand new Camaro 1LT in 2009 was, drum roll please..................$23,800. So with the far better car with content, technology, safety etc. it is only a $300 bump. You guys aren't seeing the miracle here. And it really is incredible that GM is giving us a car that weighs less, performs better (specs to be released), likely gets better mileage (specs to be released) and for the equivalent of $300 more.

This is a good thing. Not sure why this is even an issue or why suddenly GM needs a lower end car when they've delivered a far better car with in 1% in inflation adjusted dollars.

Just because you take the stink off a turd doesn't make it a better turd. The last gen should have been lighter.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by ParisTNDude

This code 130R was a running concept a couple years ago. Wondering what happened to it? This thing with a turbo 2.5 liter 4 or a turbo V6 would be dynamite. This could weigh around 3K lbs, and with nice wheels and tires, Manual or the 8 speed...I would buy one in a heart beat.Attachment 740884

Originally Posted by ssrs396

This is exactly what I am taking about. This would be a great coupe. The styling is not bad but I would like to see something a little more aggressive/edgy but the idea is solid.

The first thing when you think about a new car like this is not whether it's a cool idea or not. I thought the 130 was less than attractive. A sad BMW 1 Series.

1st it would be an all new architecture. You won't see an all new architecture if it is just for an "entry level" coupe for Chevrolet. Your hope is simply that Cadillac has been rumored to be thinking of a Sub ATS sized car. Press was reporting/rumor spreading that a smaller car off of the Alpha architecture could do the trick.

2nd, you would likely not see the LF3 or LF4 in such a car. In the showroom, you don't like to compete against yourself. "ohhhhhh, you'd like 400 HP in your RWD Sport coupe? Let me show you our awesome (and more profitable) Camaro."

3rd, don't fall into the trap that so many others make on this and other sites. Don't make up an engine that suits your needs. Today, GM doesn't have a 2.5L Turbo. They might in the future as CAFE puts a stranglehold on automakers. An all new engine for just this car would take a huge amount of capital and spreading that over a low volume entry level sport coupe would be beyond difficult to comprehend. That engine would have to exist at least somewhere else to justify it.

So this car likely would have the 2.5 NA base and a 2.0T as the uplevel engine.

But I would be that somebody at GM IS thinking like you. They would love to have a car like this and maybe even a convertible off of it to boot. The issue isn't whether it is doable. It is very doable. It's the investment vs. the number of cars you could sell first. And then second, how many cars would I cannibalize from Camaro (it has a business case) and Corvette (less likely but again give someone a free choice.......) and yes, even an SS/RS Cruze if there ever is one and also Buick Cascada (yes, another entry level sporty car. I've been telling you guys for years not everyone cares about FWD/RWD).

And for this comparison you simply have to read many of the BMW 1/2 Series reviews that go, "and for a couple of thousand more you could just get a 3/4 Series"

So this mythical entry level car needs a unique reason to be in the showroom WITH a Camaro. And being 2 or 3,000k cheaper can't be it.

True story. The original body of the C5 Corvette with the trunk was thought about as an entry level Corvette. A "cheaper" Corvette. Mrs. Number 3 brought home once. The final answer was, "why do I want to give my customer an opportunity to buy something I make less profit on". And as this body style was lighter and stiffer, the Z06 was done instead. Nice!

So GM knows already that this awesome 6th generation car will steal sales from the Corvette. They probably have model that predicts this. But if you keep giving people choices at a lower price with a lower profit margin, people will take you up on it.

So from a customer point of view, you guys are spot on. I am not in disagreement that this concept would be a fun car at a lower price.

I'm just not sure how GM does this without first getting a smaller architecture available to do it with. And that would have to be a Cadillac 1 Series competitor.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by ssrs396

Find New Roads!

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...C40D6813C91B8F

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

Just because you take the stink off a turd doesn't make it a better turd. The last gen should have been lighter.

Not sure what you mean.

What is the turd?

And the last gen was pretty light for having been developed off a Full Size Sedan.

[ParisTNDude]

Originally Posted by Number 3

The first thing when you think about a new car like this is not whether it's a cool idea or not. I thought the 130 was less than attractive. A sad BMW 1 Series.

1st it would be an all new architecture. You won't see an all new architecture if it is just for an "entry level" coupe for Chevrolet. Your hope is simply that Cadillac has been rumored to be thinking of a Sub ATS sized car. Press was reporting/rumor spreading that a smaller car off of the Alpha architecture could do the trick.

2nd, you would likely not see the LF3 or LF4 in such a car. In the showroom, you don't like to compete against yourself. "ohhhhhh, you'd like 400 HP in your RWD Sport coupe? Let me show you our awesome (and more profitable) Camaro."

3rd, don't fall into the trap that so many others make on this and other sites. Don't make up an engine that suits your needs. Today, GM doesn't have a 2.5L Turbo. They might in the future as CAFE puts a stranglehold on automakers. An all new engine for just this car would take a huge amount of capital and spreading that over a low volume entry level sport coupe would be beyond difficult to comprehend. That engine would have to exist at least somewhere else to justify it.

So this car likely would have the 2.5 NA base and a 2.0T as the uplevel engine.

But I would be that somebody at GM IS thinking like you. They would love to have a car like this and maybe even a convertible off of it to boot. The issue isn't whether it is doable. It is very doable. It's the investment vs. the number of cars you could sell first. And then second, how many cars would I cannibalize from Camaro (it has a business case) and Corvette (less likely but again give someone a free choice.......) and yes, even an SS/RS Cruze if there ever is one and also Buick Cascada (yes, another entry level sporty car. I've been telling you guys for years not everyone cares about FWD/RWD).

And for this comparison you simply have to read many of the BMW 1/2 Series reviews that go, "and for a couple of thousand more you could just get a 3/4 Series"

So this mythical entry level car needs a unique reason to be in the showroom WITH a Camaro. And being 2 or 3,000k cheaper can't be it.

True story. The original body of the C5 Corvette with the trunk was thought about as an entry level Corvette. A "cheaper" Corvette. Mrs. Number 3 brought home once. The final answer was, "why do I want to give my customer an opportunity to buy something I make less profit on". And as this body style was lighter and stiffer, the Z06 was done instead. Nice!

So GM knows already that this awesome 6th generation car will steal sales from the Corvette. They probably have model that predicts this. But if you keep giving people choices at a lower price with a lower profit margin, people will take you up on it.

So from a customer point of view, you guys are spot on. I am not in disagreement that this concept would be a fun car at a lower price.

I'm just not sure how GM does this without first getting a smaller architecture available to do it with. And that woul
d have to be a Cadillac 1 Series competitor.

Well...the 130R wasn't MY idea...it looks like someone at GM thought it might be something that would sell since they went so far as to built a running prototype. I think this car might be what the Gen 5 guys would rather have seen in 2010. With any of the LS series engines, this car would have done a job on the similar BMWs.

I disagree...the price differential between the 2016 Camaro and the Stingray would not lend well for cross shopping these two cars, so the Camaro won't steal sales from the Vette. Folks who buy Camaros may need or want an occasional back seat, albeit for small people. The Stingray, lighter, more HP, better handling would be the better track car than the base V8 Camaro...without question. Price will determine the car for Camaro6 folks, I think. Just look at how many people mention the 1SS because of the high cost and maybe weight advantage over the 2SS. Wasn't the 1LE around $37K new?

Cadillac platforms may perform well, but the price is totally prohibitive for me and probably many others. I think the 2016 Camaro 1SS would be the car to have for all around performance until higher HP and better suspended Z28 or ZL1 models are produced. however $37k for SS entry level is pretty steep.

You're wrong...the trunk model C5 Corvette was built and they sold 4,031 of them http://www.vettefacts.com/C5/1999.aspx ...it had the standard LS1 engine. It was built initially as a lower cost, lighter and stiffer body performance car that could be used for track duty. Used, this body style are highly sought after because of their lighter weight than the standard coupe or the Z06 that came later. In 2001, the Z06 used this basic body style with a higher performance engine and added suspension pieces. I love this car.

We're all just dreaming anyway...killing time until they release the performance data, aren't we?

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by ParisTNDude

Well...the 130R wasn't MY idea...it looks like someone at GM thought it might be something that would sell since they went so far as to built a running prototype. I think this car might be what the Gen 5 guys would rather have seen in 2010. With any of the LS series engines, this car would have done a job on the similar BMWs.

I disagree...the price differential between the 2016 Camaro and the Stingray would not lend well for cross shopping these two cars, so the Camaro won't steal sales from the Vette. Folks who buy Camaros may need or want an occasional back seat, albeit for small people. The Stingray, lighter, more HP, better handling would be the better track car than the base V8 Camaro...without question. Price will determine the car for Camaro6 folks, I think. Just look at how many people mention the 1SS because of the high cost and maybe weight advantage over the 2SS. Wasn't the 1LE around $37K new?

Cadillac platforms may perform well, but the price is totally prohibitive for me and probably many others. I think the 2016 Camaro 1SS would be the car to have for all around performance until higher HP and better suspended Z28 or ZL1 models are produced. however $37k for SS entry level is pretty steep.

You're wrong...the trunk model C5 Corvette was built and they sold 4,031 of them http://www.vettefacts.com/C5/1999.aspx ...it had the standard LS1 engine. It was built initially as a lower cost, lighter and stiffer body performance car that could be used for track duty. Used, this body style are highly sought after because of their lighter weight than the standard coupe or the Z06 that came later. In 2001, the Z06 used this basic body style with a higher performance engine and added suspension pieces. I love this car.

We're all just dreaming anyway...killing time until they release the performance data, aren't we?

And they kept building them? No they didn't. Point was they took it from the low price point to high to high. Mrs. Number 3 corrected me in that it actually did go into production for a short while before the Z06. So corrected by you both. But hopefully you got my point.

[Doc]

Wow! Great conversation! Apparently my threads do much better if I don't participate in them rofl. Catching up there's some good stuff in here. And to Number 3's point about the difficulty of creating a car that is truly profitable without draining existing product lines, in a way that's kind of my point.

I believe the same market opportunity exists today that existed 50 years ago when the first pony cars came on the scene. They were a huge hit then for the exact same reason that I think they'd be a huge hit today. I remember as a youngster dreaming over Vettes, Jags, Cobras and the like at that time but thinking I would never be able to afford something like that. When the Mustang and Camaro came out, they allowed the 'dreamers' to kind-of sort-of own that high-powered, expensive excitement with a car that looked somewhat like them, but was within reach of buying or even dreaming of buying.

Due to many reasons the current batch of Mustangs and Camaros have evolved way beyond pony cars and while that's fantastic, their price has started to evolve beyond the reach of the 'youngsters' of today. They may be dreaming of owning a Stingray, Jag, Camaro SS or Z/28, Mustang or the like but realize they can't and think they may never be able to buy a new one.

You and the others who've posted are correct; there really isn't anything out there that fits what I'm proposing; a true pony car...again. Just like the originals, it can be built from existing parts and systems; the only thing 'new' needed would be a body and interior. Granted that's not cheap by any means but that's also the critical element to success. The body and interior HAVE TO BE GREAT. Not great in the sense of expensive with a lot of high tech goodies; that's what you move up to a Camaro for, but great in style. The other cars that didn't succeed that some of you have mentioned, I see the criticism as either style or interior sucked. That's the critical element.

A new pony car has to look great with a clean, streamlined interior that's great to sit in and look at. Great functionality with the little things like cup holders. If it can be done for $18,850 (including DFC) then I think it'll strike that same gold vein the original pony cars did, and for the exact same reason. If a new young buyer can get one for about $20k out the door, that's a dream come true. Nothing beats the fun and excitement of buying a new car; especially if it's your first one.

Will that cannibalize the Camaro? Not as much as you'd think. There's a $10k difference between what I'm proposing and the entry-level Camaro, and that's a significant amount. The new buyer who can just afford the $20k deal simply isn't going to be the Camaro customer at this time. But it would be great to bring them into the Chevy family and cultivate them as a future Camaro customer as they get older and more affluent. It also make this kind of car a great second car for a family who already owns a Camaro.

I realize there's always risk when proposing something new but that's the difference between those who lead and those who wait to see what the leaders do and try to jump on the band wagon with me-too products. I would love to see Chevrolet be the leader with this. They have everything they need; they just need to take a good look at it and do a concept car to see the reaction; and then be ready to capitalize on it and get it into production if the reaction is favorable.