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Old 02-15-2013, 04:38 PM   #267
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Fielder, you make excellent points and you do it well. But you'd have better luck talking to a brick wall. I've seen SlingShot discuss this before and I know what you're up against. His attitude is, "Ive got mine and I dont care if others cant afford it." It's selfish if you ask me.

That's always been the great thing about muscle/pony cars as Camaro-Dreamer said, they are affordable for the Average Joe. As we see more and more regulations and taxes aimed at performance cars, less and less middle class people will be able to afford them. Instead of them being the toys of Joe Sixpack, they will become the toys of the rich.

Thank you for making my point ... Your right, I don't care if you limit yourself and can't afford the things you want in life. You sound like one of those hippies that wants everything given to them. Not all performance cars are taxed, only those that don't meet standards. Buy yourself a new GT500, no extra tax on that.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:10 PM   #268
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I may sound like a hippie to you, but you sound like an elitist to me. I'm hardly a hippie who wants everything given to me at all. If you could comprehend my posts you'd realize I'm a Libertarian type. I've been employed since the week I turned 16 and was legally able to be employed. I'd have been employed even earlier than that, but the Gov't had mandated I couldn't be.

So if you don't realize how the Gov't is raising the costs of things, why do you then reference how some cars have their prices raised via the Gas Guzzler Tax while others do not?

The Founders gave us the right to pursue happiness, not the right to pursue happiness only with things that meet Gov't imposed standards.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:32 PM   #269
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I may sound like a hippie to you, but you sound like an elitist to me. I'm hardly a hippie who wants everything given to me at all. If you could comprehend my posts you'd realize I'm a Libertarian type. I've been employed since the week I turned 16 and was legally able to be employed. I'd have been employed even earlier than that, but the Gov't had mandated I couldn't be.

So if you don't realize how the Gov't is raising the costs of things, why do you then reference how some cars have their prices raised via the Gas Guzzler Tax while others do not?

The Founders gave us the right to pursue happiness, not the right to pursue happiness only with things that meet Gov't imposed standards.

Your opportunities in life are the same as mine and everyone elses. I don't recall anyone guaranteeing the top of the line of any one product. Myself personally when I plan on paying $60k on a car that nobody is forcing me to buy, the GG tax is not gonna break the deal. Call me an elitist if you wish, I just think of it more as just working wisely. Our family just happens to enjoy nice cars and are willing to work hard and pay the price for them. We don't drink, smoke, go out to dinner several times a week. We are self employed, and are responsible for ourselves. Nobody ever said it was gonna be easy.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:33 PM   #270
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I really don't see where the government is raising the cost of everything.
Pure semantics. Just because they aren't doing so directly . . .


Apparently you don't fully realize that experience in some rather specialized jobs (or even with specific companies) don't always transfer as readily as you'd like to think. Or stopped to consider the potential economics of moving a household and everything in it to a different location where you'd simply move back up the same path a little.

Understand that living the life of a "Have Gun, Will Travel" road warrior touching base back at home once or twice a month isn't for everyone - the emotional and potential financial costs there can easily exceed one year's salary. Don't believe me? Then ask anybody who's been divorced over it.


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Old 02-15-2013, 06:43 PM   #271
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We are self employed
Figured as much, but it wasn't going to be me saying it first.

Understand that not everybody can do that. You'd need way more of a head for business than I'll ever have (and probably way less of some of the skills that I do have).

I don't think people begrudge you personally for being able to pull it off, just for the attitude that shines through.


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Old 02-15-2013, 06:54 PM   #272
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Apparently you don't fully realize that experience in some rather specialized jobs (or even with specific companies) don't always transfer as readily as you'd like to think. Or stopped to consider the potential economics of moving a household and everything in it to a different location where you'd simply move back up the same path a little.
I'm very aware of a lot more than you think. I spent 25 years as a tool maker/millwright in Detroit. I got tired of getting laid off and having my life revolve around the auto industry.

So I packed things up and moved to Florida. Got a job doing machine work for NASA. While doing machine work, I put myself back through school and got a degree in Computer Science. I did IT work for about 10 years, and shortly after 911 gave that up and went to work with my wife working out of our home. So here we are today being responsible for our own path in life.


Guess we will all just have to agree to disagree, because this thing sure hung a left a long time a go.
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:05 PM   #273
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I'm not sure where these arguments of extra cost are coming from.
That's because your method is all wrong.

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There is such a thing as inflation. In 1967 it cost $3,700 for a SS396 with the same performance as a LS today. Factoring in inflation, that $3,700 is $20,293.94 in today's dollars. So for the slight increase in price you get a much better stereo, A/C, better seats, better tires and wheels, lots of saftey features, the ability to sync with a cell phone, etc... .
You're not comparing apples to apples. You need to either use the 1967 cost of the lowest trim 1967 Camaro, or use the current cost of a 2013 2SS which is approximately where the SS396 fell in the 1967 Camaro lineup. As it is, you're comparing an upper trim 1967 model to a base level trim 2013 model.

So what you have proven is that if you spent the same amount of money, inflation adjusted, on a Camaro in 1967 you would have gotten an upper trim level Camaro, while in today's world you would only get a base level trim Camaro.

Once you make a true apples to apples comparison you will see that car prices have risen faster than inflation between 1967 and now.

And it's because of Gov't interference.
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:44 PM   #274
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You really can't make an apples to apples comparison from 1967 to now. Even with and without the different government standards the cars are worlds apart. Like it or not, technology and safety cost more. To be honest I'm grateful for where cars are today, because back in 1967 the cars were built like crap and you didn't get the warranty's that you get today. Granted nothing is for free, and we pay for those extras but most of us don't complain if we get into a wreck or have something break.
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:47 PM   #275
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maybe the 4-cylinder cars will be for the European markets. I heard that over there, cars with big engines would get taxed heavily.
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:47 PM   #276
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Well then it's even dumber to ignore the biggest economy on the planet.
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Originally Posted by Lou_Dorchen View Post
That's because your method is all wrong.



You're not comparing apples to apples. You need to either use the 1967 cost of the lowest trim 1967 Camaro, or use the current cost of a 2013 2SS which is approximately where the SS396 fell in the 1967 Camaro lineup. As it is, you're comparing an upper trim 1967 model to a base level trim 2013 model.

So what you have proven is that if you spent the same amount of money, inflation adjusted, on a Camaro in 1967 you would have gotten an upper trim level Camaro, while in today's world you would only get a base level trim Camaro.

Once you make a true apples to apples comparison you will see that car prices have risen faster than inflation between 1967 and now.

And it's because of Gov't interference.
Are you considering that the "governement interference" is only a portion of that adjusted cost increase? Much of it is technology improvements that arguably we would want and pay for that weren't available then.

Also consider that many of these safety technologies would be customer driven. I'll give you the example of door beams. Developed for side impact, they were designed to "meet the specific govenment standard". The beams themselves weren't mandated. Long story short the Japanese OEMs were puttng these door beams on cars here in the U.S. and NOT in Japan. It wasn't mandated. The Japanese complained about why the U.S. go safer cars and the rest is history.

With the price of oil, I would argue this would take care of itself over time. But the government feels it's involvement will improve the situation.

So I'm not trying to disagree, but many of the advancements that have driven car prices up are technology based.

Brakes are better, tires are better, seats are better (with mandated head restraints ) structure is better, ride is better, car is quieter. On and on.

Now if you wan't to compare the flipside of the anti vibration car CD player I bought many many years ago that played the CD through a cassette player for $400 in "back in the day" dollars and can now be bought for under $20, well that's another story.
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:49 PM   #277
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Why would anyone want a 4 cyl camaro?? Sounds a bit lame.
I know the conversation has drifted a little, but in my opinion...most who'd be into a Turbo 4 Camaro (I doubt you'll see anything less than that in a car called "Camaro") would be those looking for a "sporty" coupe with looks, a low price, and everyday practicality (fuel economy, maintenance, etc) that most of us here normally sacrifice when we opt for the V8s.

Not lame...just different strokes for different folks. And there's nothing wrong with that, so long as they're driving a Camaro.
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:43 PM   #278
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I could never understand why some people have such a RTC factor in their life. Change is a good thing and should be embraced. Without change, life becomes very stagnate.
HOLD THE PHONE!!!!!!

We have to get you on CNN ASAP!!!!

Finally someone has the solution for climate change:

"Change is a good thing and should be embraced."

As part of embracing it, the EPA is hereby dissolved, and CAFE eliminated. There will be no size, weight, or horsepower limit on cars from this day forward!

"EMBRACE THE CHANGE!" "CHANGE IS GOOD!"

YYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHOOOOOOOO OOOO!!!
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:50 PM   #279
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Ok so the 82 Camaro had a 350 cu in V8 that made 150 hp and if you upped the anty you get get the 165 hp Cross Fire injected fire breathing beast. All government sponsored circa early 1970's emissions requlations (not fuel economy).

So the new 2.5 L I4 makes 200 hp and the 2.0L Turbo makes 270. Don't get hung up on what the Camaro is based on what it was. History says the 2.5L would smoke the 82 V8.

And we've already referenced the awesome Iron Duke earlier in this thread. Yikes!!!!

Just sayin'
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:59 PM   #280
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Nobody is suggesting that the Camaro become either of those things (hint: virtually all of those "alternatives" are 4-door sedans with styling that ranges between bland and downright odd).
I think it would be much more productive to get the makers of those cars to offer a coupe version than it would be to change the camaro into a 2 door copy of them.

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But why anybody who overwhelmingly prefers a V8 version should care how the entry point is configured just isn't making much sense here, as they'd all be somebody else's cars regardless.
You are misreading me. I don't really care what they offer in terms of a base model, but I see here a lot of people who seem to be saying that a tiny camaro with a tiny engine with the boost cranked up is what they want the car to be. I think you would find these same people in a Harley Davidson forum complaining because they don't make crotchrockets.

But that's only a small part of my disagreement. The biggest part of it is that there are people on here who knowingly put aside their own common sense to take the side that CAFE standards are a good thing and that it won't hurt the Camaro to have them. The 4 cylinder camaro can be attributed to the CAFE standards and I believe that to meet those goals that the I4 will be nowehere near the performer people dream of. It wouldn't surprise me if they put something like CAGS or AFM on the I-4 (or worse), because they "have" to. Meanwhile the V8 will be reduced to a limited production car that only Jay Leno and Rick Hendrick will be able to afford.

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The pickup suggestion is just a distraction into silliness.
The it is the perfect analogy for how many people feel about what people are suggesting for the Camaro.
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