[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Not spin. None of these cars are doing well and Challenger is the worst. The difference is fleet/rental sales. The Challenger has the big truck, big back seat, cheap V8 model, etc. So suggesting those features are going to be the difference is questionable.

Fleet! GM is avoiding that.

Retail ATP's 2017 (JDPin)
Camaro: $39,514
Challenger: $35,498 (-$4,016)
Mustang: $33,792 (-$5,722)

Retail Sales 2017
Camaro: 65,222
Mustang: 60,581 (-4641)
Challenger: 45,821 (-19,401)

Total Sales 2017
Mustang 81,866
Camaro 67,940 (-13,926)
Challenger 64,537 (-17,329)

Percentage of Total Sales that are Fleet/Rental 2017
Camaro 4%
Mustang 26% (+22%)
Challenger 29% (+25%)

Yeah it's great GM is selling more retail than fleet but sometimes good business is where you find it. I would love to sell to just my small customers because I make more selling to them than distributors but sometimes moving a lot of product at once to a distributor is neccessary.

And without knowing what is made per vehicle this conversation is really just tossing partial data around and all guessing. Ford might be making more total profit on the Mustang because of the fleet sales but we don't know all we can do is guess.

Either way I can bet you the bean counters weren't happy with the number of vehicles sold for any of the 3 cars

EDIT I will say that I do believe GM probably is making more per car than Ford, but we all know Ford isn't losing money on those fleet sales so the total profit in the cars could be the same but we do not know

[lt4camaro]

Originally Posted by motorhead

Camaro leads retail sales for the year still. That has been posted.


Edit: im not sure if Challenger retail sales were in that post. Looking for it. Anyone know or have it?

You have my curiosity, where can I find retail sale totals for the 3 cars for the year 2018 so far and the complete amount for 2017 on all 3 cars.

[RealG]

One thing is very clear , the most expensive brand is selling the worst.

[SecondZ28]

Originally Posted by MuhThugga

It was one hell of a refresh with a completely new interior, the addition of the 8 speed auto, the addition of the Hellcat, and other new trim levels including one that combined the 6.4 with the previous SRT equipment for more affordable 392-equipped vehicle.

So, going back to the original statement, it is not the same car from 2009

It needed a big refresh to keep it relevant until it's redesigned, which may not come now until 2020-21.

New engines/transmissions/trim levels does not make it a redesigned vehicle when it's still riding on the same chassis from 2005/08 (LX/LC). It is the same dinosaur from 2008, your delusional if you think otherwise.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Yeah it's great GM is selling more retail than fleet but sometimes good business is where you find it. I would love to sell to just my small customers because I make more selling to them than distributors but sometimes moving a lot of product at once to a distributor is neccessary.

And without knowing what is made per vehicle this conversation is really just tossing partial data around and all guessing. Ford might be making more total profit on the Mustang because of the fleet sales but we don't know all we can do is guess.

Either way I can bet you the bean counters weren't happy with the number of vehicles sold for any of the 3 cars

EDIT I will say that I do believe GM probably is making more per car than Ford, but we all know Ford isn't losing money on those fleet sales so the total profit in the cars could be the same but we do not know

Point is... All this talk about what the Camaro "needs" to sell better misses the fact more private "people" are buying the Camaro and paying a premium to do so. Newmoon saying "people don't much like Maro" is a joke because "people" like the Mustang and Challenger less.

I know you get it... Just using your post to emphasize the point

[AZCamaroFan]

Originally Posted by SecondZ28

It needed a big refresh to keep it relevant until it's redesigned, which may not come now until 2020-21.

New engines/transmissions/trim levels does not make it a redesigned vehicle when it's still riding on the same chassis from 2005/08 (LX/LC). It is the same dinosaur from 2008, your delusional if you think otherwise.

no wonder companies like ford and dodge can get away with the 'the new 1998 mustang "or the "new 2012 challenger' with people out there that will believe it

[WhyUMad1LE]

The Camaro is a bad rental car, but a good personal car. No surprises here.

[Outlaw77]

the 6th gen issues are pretty simple. Too small, too expensive for a decent performance trim and the appearance is bland. I hope GM does better with the 7th gen, if they do it at all.

[AZCamaroFan]

Bland


i'll be smh so hard it'll fall off

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Point is... All this talk about what the Camaro "needs" to sell better misses the fact more private "people" are buying the Camaro and paying a premium to do so. Newmoon saying "people don't much like Maro" is a joke because "people" like the Mustang and Challenger less.

I know you get it... Just using your post to emphasize the point

I get what you're throwing down, I think we can all agree no matter what though, the February numbers for all were bad, like really bad

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I get what you're throwing down, I think we can all agree no matter what though, the February numbers for all were bad, like really bad

Bad? yes... No doubt.

Was February fleet dump month for Mustang and Challenger? Is Mustang doing great given the enhancements it just got?

[Lafourche1]

Just remember that GM is on the record as stating they were not pursuing fleet sales with the Camaro. That was stated very early on in the 2016 redesign cycle. 4% of sales would seem to indicate that, indeed, this is their business model. Higher profit margins per unit and perhaps less warranty work (I have to believe that rental sales have higher warranty claims than individual sales).

[germanicus]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Point is... All this talk about what the Camaro "needs" to sell better misses the fact more private "people" are buying the Camaro and paying a premium to do so. Newmoon saying "people don't much like Maro" is a joke because "people" like the Mustang and Challenger less.

Not really. The numbers you quoted above are U.S. only.
When you expand out to Canada/Europe/Asia, the contrast is much more weighed in favor of Mustang sales. Globally Mustang is crushing it. If you don't think that is a factor in either Ford's or GM's plans, you may wish to re-assess that position. In fact, 1 in 4 Mustangs made are sent to China, Germany, or England. It currently outsells 911's in Germany.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...fans/32900779/

The fact that GM had well over 100 days of inventory sitting on lots for most of 2017, does not bode well in terms of them meeting production vs. sales metrics.

[indyz]

The dealership experience leaves much to be desired as well. GM dealers are actually worse now, compared to when I was in the market for a GTO. I have no experience with dodge or Ford dealerships, are they similar?

Infiniti is much better. Even BMW, my initial experience was pretty good. My recent experiences with Hyundai on recalls has been superb as well. GM dealers in South Florida...... I dunno