Break In Engine Before?

[Russell James]

Ring and pinion gear manufacturers would differ with anyone claiming a hard break in from mile 1 is a good thing.

Great for a race engine where you know every blueprinted spec. A mass produced vehicle where every once in a while something is on the hair tight side.. not so much.

Race engines and mass production engines are two different worlds. Different tolerances, blueprinting, longevity expectations.

I look at it this way... if the goal is max power for 100 miles of test/qual and 500 miles of race. Blueprint it to perfection. Break it in on the dyno, hit the track wide open.

If you bought it to get groceries for 150,000 miles. Just drive it normal. There is a gazzillion cars out there that were driven normally and making perfect power. I've owned many of them.

Also was a tech and worked on cars that were beat to death when new. The galled valve stems to guide that are tapping like crazy at 1000 miles were no coincidense.

[pickwithaustin]

Originally Posted by invaderzim

I think I'm seeing where you're confused... You seem to believe that GM is looking out for your best interest. Hate to break it to you, buddy. They're not. Babying an engine is beneficial in case of defective parts. All modern engines should last over 200k miles with regular maintenance. A lot don't. When your tranny goes out with 70k miles it means it was defective from the start. Basically by babying your car you're buying them time. Maybe the defective part makes it past warranty maybe not. nothing in that manual is put there for your benefit. Everything is to cover their own asses. Every manufacturer of anything ever made. It's the reason for the key recall. Simply for GM to cover themselves. Everything they do is for their benefit. Not yours.

I think I'm seeing where you're confused... You think that keeping your car from breaking down only benefits GM, when actually, a car that runs well benefits you, the driver/owner, also!

[NYCamOwner]

Originally Posted by invaderzim

I think I'm seeing where you're confused... You seem to believe that GM is looking out for your best interest. Hate to break it to you, buddy. They're not. Babying an engine is beneficial in case of defective parts. All modern engines should last over 200k miles with regular maintenance. A lot don't. When your tranny goes out with 70k miles it means it was defective from the start. Basically by babying your car you're buying them time. Maybe the defective part makes it past warranty maybe not. nothing in that manual is put there for your benefit. Everything is to cover their own asses. Every manufacturer of anything ever made. It's the reason for the key recall. Simply for GM to cover themselves. Everything they do is for their benefit. Not yours.

Wow..

[pickwithaustin]

Originally Posted by NYCamOwner

Wow..

The world is full of the amazing, right? LOL

[PalmerGA]

Originally Posted by 1hevy_chevy

lolol

Guys....It's not that hard. GM wants to cover their ass. You thin'k they're going to TELL YOU in the friggen manual to hit that shit hard? Please. I know its a sports/muscle car but cmon. Be real. The only way ANYONE will find out which breaking in way is better than the other. Is if you buy 2 of the exact same year, from the same time of production, and break one in like you stole it, and granny shift the other. And even then, no 2 cars will ever be the same, so even if you granny shift BOTH 1 will probably still last longer than the other. Do you what you think is right. Do your regular maintenance. I would change the oil and keep doing you. If GM tells you to baby that shit for the first few thousand its because they don't want to get sued because god forbid you have have a defective part that is probably in there and by riding it hard probably broke it. But what are the chances of a brand spanking new muscle car having a defective part? And if youre gonna rape the shit out of it, don't shift at the limiter every freakin shift lol

Fair enough, but this "granny shift" comparison is pure BS. Nothing in the recommended break-in from the manual says anything about babying or "granny shifting" (if you prefer) your Camaro. In a nutshell, it simply recommends no WOT or slamming on the brakes, don't use cruise control (to prevent prolonged miles at the same RPMs), and keep it under 80... for the first 1,500 miles. Which, if you're like me, took about a month to achieve.

While I understand the "GM liability" aspect you refer to, you also have to consider GM not wanting to have to process/perform a bunch of warranty claims brought on by idiots beating the crap out of a car that is fresh off the line. They have enough warranty issues as it is, given the excellent "factory warranty".

I didn't "granny" mine at all. I got up to legal speeds (and a bit above) more quickly than most other drivers on the road, and varied my speeds (which has been a long time recommendation from automobile manufacturers).

Please don't assume that those of us who didn't "drive it like we stole it" for the first 1,500 miles were putting around like your grandma in a Model T (no offense to grandmas out there).

[PalmerGA]

Originally Posted by invaderzim

I think I'm seeing where you're confused... You seem to believe that GM is looking out for your best interest. Hate to break it to you, buddy. They're not. Babying an engine is beneficial in case of defective parts. All modern engines should last over 200k miles with regular maintenance. A lot don't. When your tranny goes out with 70k miles it means it was defective from the start. Basically by babying your car you're buying them time. Maybe the defective part makes it past warranty maybe not. nothing in that manual is put there for your benefit. Everything is to cover their own asses. Every manufacturer of anything ever made. It's the reason for the key recall. Simply for GM to cover themselves. Everything they do is for their benefit. Not yours.

This is just a wee bit idiotic. Of course GM wants your car to last as long as possible without incident... so do I. So your theory is... beat the crap out of it from day one so you can break whatever may break right away? Am I wrong here?

[invaderzim]

Originally Posted by PalmerGA

This is just a wee bit idiotic. Of course GM wants your car to last as long as possible without incident... so do I. So your theory is... beat the crap out of it from day one so you can break whatever may break right away? Am I wrong here?

You're only wrong in the beat the crap part. Idk how to quote 2 people so this goes for the other dudes as well and one last time. I never said rev the nuts out of it every single chance you can. Drive normal. Drive hard. Everyone here would rather a defective part give right away rather than the week after the warranty is up. also no offense buddy but you've already repeatedly stated this is the first "nice car" you've own and that's why you babied it. The crowd seems to be split in opinion and yours really carries little weight because of that fact. I've broken in quite a few new cars without the "recommended break in routine" and I still own and drive perfectly fine. Including an 05 navigator that had 75 miles on the clock when I went on a 2k mile round trip and put on cruise control for a good deal of time right away. Over 175k now and still purrs like a kitten. Same for a wrx sti that hit the road course with less than 400miles on it. 75k now and still runs like a champ. this '12 camaro wasn't babied either. Yeah only 7k so far but no issues whatsoever, not even the horrible new clutch smell. Like I said before and one last, don't rape the thing but driving it hard from the get go won't hurt the engines. And btw you guys that seriously believe GM has your best interest in mind or that they care what happens to your car after the warranty expires are exactly the kind of people big corporations love.

[NYCamOwner]

Originally Posted by invaderzim

You're only wrong in the beat the crap part. Idk how to quote 2 people so this goes for the other dudes as well and one last time. I never said rev the nuts out of it every single chance you can. Drive normal. Drive hard. Everyone here would rather a defective part give right away rather than the week after the warranty is up. also no offense buddy but you've already repeatedly stated this is the first "nice car" you've own and that's why you babied it. The crowd seems to be split in opinion and yours really carries little weight because of that fact. I've broken in quite a few new cars without the "recommended break in routine" and I still own and drive perfectly fine. Including an 05 navigator that had 75 miles on the clock when I went on a 2k mile round trip and put on cruise control for a good deal of time right away. Over 175k now and still purrs like a kitten. Same for a wrx sti that hit the road course with less than 400miles on it. 75k now and still runs like a champ. this '12 camaro wasn't babied either. Yeah only 7k so far but no issues whatsoever, not even the horrible new clutch smell. Like I said before and one last, don't rape the thing but driving it hard from the get go won't hurt the engines. And btw you guys that seriously believe GM has your best interest in mind or that they care what happens to your car after the warranty expires are exactly the kind of people big corporations love.

You know, to some extent, you're right. Most of what is in the owners manual is to protect themselves.. It is there to protect them from people who would go out and do stupid things, and then blame them for it because "It didn't say not to in the owners manual"..
You know what all the owners manuals in the future will have in them for a warning?

"Do not add any other keys or extra items to the key ring, as this can cause a problem with the ignition switch. Adding weight to the key ring can cause the key to break or the ignition to shut off thus causing a possible accident."

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by JantzenOKC

Here's a link to a good read on a hard break in.. it makes alot of sense.

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

It doesn't make any sense for your brand-new transmission and axle gears, which I don't think he talks about at all. Those surfaces also need to wear in to each other . . . without any local overheating that could ruin their heat treatment. Anybody who has ever installed new axle gears and touched the diff cover immediately after only 20 miles of break in would know all about this even if they didn't read the installation instructions . . . hopefully without the burns to prove it.

He's counting on ring end gaps being loose enough that the tendency for rings to run hot as they are being broken in does not cause the ends to butt against each other. Maybe production gaps are loose enough, but I don't think I'd care to risk a whole engine against the possibility that one ring in one cylinder might be just a little too tight.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by invaderzim

Break it in hard. All the people saying "read the manual... Engineers know best" don't seem to understand that the "soft break in" period in there is more for liability purposes than anything else. No manufacturer of anything is ever going to tell a costumer to beat the hell out of the product. Drive it normally and stop worrying about it.

People who aren't engineers make all kinds of excuses for why they think "common sense understanding" is worth more than detailed understanding of the principles involved. Yes, I was an engineer, for about 40 years (I'm now retired).

About 3/4 of the way down in that "Break In Secrets" link, there is a brief discussion about "What about street bikes?". He wants you to take it on faith that the problem was caused by a too-gentle break-in process, but there are so many assumptions hiding behind that that it ends up being little more than salesmanship at its best.


I really doubt that pushing any potential problems out another 1500 miles into the future would have any significant effect on the mfr's warranty costs. The stuff that breaks early is still going to break early, and the things that wear out aren't going to be sensitive to a 1500 mile difference in mileage.

BTW . . . I've built a few engines, too, so I've also got some dirty-hands experience. On most of them I used file-fit rings, which does require a little more thought and understanding on your part than just slapping them straight out of the box onto the pistons and calling it done.


Norm

[PalmerGA]

Alright, invaderzim, let's look at what I have posted in this thread (all posts quoted below - I'll tell you how to do that in a minute). Then we'll dissect them and yours and continue on. Ready??? Here we go. First, all of my posts.

Originally Posted by PalmerGA

Along the lines of what many people here would say about mods, paint, wheels, etc.... It's your car and your money - continue beating the crap out of it if you wish.


Seriously though - stop beating your brand new car. Read your manual and go by the break in recommendations. GM puts them in there for a reason. Since you plan to keep your car a long time, give it a chance to perform its best for you for years to come.

Originally Posted by PalmerGA

I don't totally discount the "Break it in hard" theory for anyone who wants to do it that way. Maybe it's the best way... maybe it's the worst way. Regardless, it took me a long time to be able to justify buying myself a really nice car - just because I wanted it. I retired in Dec 2011 and prior to that, my "daily driver" vehicles had a designated purpose of getting me to and from work every day and providing economical transportation for my work-related travel (which amounted to 50K+ miles per year).

My Camaro is purely for pleasure and yes, that includes periods of "spirited driving" whenever the urge strikes. This is also the most technologically advanced vehicle I ever have owned, and if the experts at GM recommend a specific way to break it in... I'm following their advice in hopes of getting maximum life and reliability from this long-awaited addition to my life.

I think if a "hard break-in" was (in GM's opinion) the best way to ensure long and trouble-free ownership, they would either recommend it in the manual or would have taken care of it before it left the factory.

Originally Posted by PalmerGA

Uh... yeah. That's the whole point, to include warranty liability.

Originally Posted by PalmerGA

Fair enough, but this "granny shift" comparison is pure BS. Nothing in the recommended break-in from the manual says anything about babying or "granny shifting" (if you prefer) your Camaro. In a nutshell, it simply recommends no WOT or slamming on the brakes, don't use cruise control (to prevent prolonged miles at the same RPMs), and keep it under 80... for the first 1,500 miles. Which, if you're like me, took about a month to achieve.

While I understand the "GM liability" aspect you refer to, you also have to consider GM not wanting to have to process/perform a bunch of warranty claims brought on by idiots beating the crap out of a car that is fresh off the line. They have enough warranty issues as it is, given the excellent "factory warranty".

I didn't "granny" mine at all. I got up to legal speeds (and a bit above) more quickly than most other drivers on the road, and varied my speeds (which has been a long time recommendation from automobile manufacturers).

Please don't assume that those of us who didn't "drive it like we stole it" for the first 1,500 miles were putting around like your grandma in a Model T (no offense to grandmas out there).

Originally Posted by PalmerGA

This is just a wee bit idiotic. Of course GM wants your car to last as long as possible without incident... so do I. So your theory is... beat the crap out of it from day one so you can break whatever may break right away? Am I wrong here?

Originally Posted by invaderzim

You're only wrong in the beat the crap part. Idk how to quote 2 people so this goes for the other dudes as well and one last time.

=========================================
Now I'll address this first part of your post, just to help you out. You can quote multiple post by clicking on the "quotation mark" (") to the right of the "quote" button. You can do this for multiple posts - I don't know of any limit of how many times. Then, on the last post you wish to quote, click the "quote" button and all the posts you wish to reference will appear in the reply box. You're welcome.
==========================================

Originally Posted by invaderzim

I never said rev the nuts out of it every single chance you can. Drive normal. Drive hard. Everyone here would rather a defective part give right away rather than the week after the warranty is up. also no offense buddy but you've already repeatedly stated this is the first "nice car" you've own and that's why you babied it. The crowd seems to be split in opinion and yours really carries little weight because of that fact.

======================================
Okay. Now... what I actually posted (as shown in the second referenced post) was, this is the first time I have bought a "really nice car - just because I wanted it". Plus, I said it ONCE, not "repeatedly". I have had other "nice cars", but I purchased them based on a specific need... not just on desire. When they finished serving their purpose, I sold or traded them and bought the next car that I had a need for. This Camaro is strictly a selfish purchase based on me having fun with a great looking iconic car.

I also never said I "babied it". Other than the 4,000 rpm limit, the recommended break-in essentially says not to over-rev or stop quickly, and to vary your driving speeds and keep it under 80 mph. You can do all these things and still enjoy some "spirited driving"... just not all-out spirited driving. No wide open throttle.

Next, if you look in the second quoted post above, I said “I don't totally discount the "Break it in hard" theory for anyone who wants to do it that way. Maybe it's the best way... maybe it's the worst way.” Let me interpret that for you: I can't definitively say which way is the best way to break-in these new Camaros… and neither can you or anyone else here who isn't an expert on these specific vehicles. It’s all opinion based on past experience. But, the “experts” on these Gen5 Camaros are the engineers who designed and tested them (not you, not me, not a mechanic with 30 years of experience turning wrenches). You break ‘em in as you like – it’s your car. Personally, I will defer to “the experts”.

Lastly, using the quote feature is very helpful and highly recommended to keep the conversation organized and on track, but if you are going to change what people actually say through your own interpretation, well... it just makes you look foolish.

[PalmerGA]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

It doesn't make any sense for your brand-new transmission and axle gears, which I don't think he talks about at all. Those surfaces also need to wear in to each other . . . without any local overheating that could ruin their heat treatment. Anybody who has ever installed new axle gears and touched the diff cover immediately after only 20 miles of break in would know all about this even if they didn't read the installation instructions . . . hopefully without the burns to prove it.

He's counting on ring end gaps being loose enough that the tendency for rings to run hot as they are being broken in does not cause the ends to butt against each other. Maybe production gaps are loose enough, but I don't think I'd care to risk a whole engine against the possibility that one ring in one cylinder might be just a little too tight.


Norm

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

People who aren't engineers make all kinds of excuses for why they think "common sense understanding" is worth more than detailed understanding of the principles involved. Yes, I was an engineer, for about 40 years (I'm now retired).

About 3/4 of the way down in that "Break In Secrets" link, there is a brief discussion about "What about street bikes?". He wants you to take it on faith that the problem was caused by a too-gentle break-in process, but there are so many assumptions hiding behind that that it ends up being little more than salesmanship at its best.


I really doubt that pushing any potential problems out another 1500 miles into the future would have any significant effect on the mfr's warranty costs. The stuff that breaks early is still going to break early, and the things that wear out aren't going to be sensitive to a 1500 mile difference in mileage.

BTW . . . I've built a few engines, too, so I've also got some dirty-hands experience. On most of them I used file-fit rings, which does require a little more thought and understanding on your part than just slapping them straight out of the box onto the pistons and calling it done.


Norm

[pickwithaustin]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I really doubt that pushing any potential problems out another 1500 miles into the future would have any significant effect on the mfr's warranty costs. The stuff that breaks early is still going to break early, and the things that wear out aren't going to be sensitive to a 1500 mile difference in mileage.

LOL... Don't use common sense on the kids and he-men. It's not like they're gonna "get it" anyways.

[JantzenOKC]

By The Power Of Grayskull, I Have The Power!