[LateBrakeU2]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

Oh, I'm not defending GM or Chrysler or anyone else... Just saying Ford took handouts as well...

Additionally, I think the bailout was everything GM needed to clean its house up anyways. It shuttered Oldsmobile not long before the bailout, closed Saturn, Hummer, Pontiac....and shut down some unneeded models in the rest of their lines. Still think they would be better off shutting down GMC and folding it in with Chevy or folding Chevy trucks under GMC.... but I digress...

I agree. Tough call on the truck side, they sell the crap out of Suburbans, Denali's and folks have no issues shelling out 90k for Escalades. Regardless, restructuring has been paying off like a broken slot machine for performance buyers. Never thought i'd be seeing this after all these decades.

[Quinten_33]

The last Mid-Engine Corvette leak for a while. It’s a Twin Turbo V8, obviously. But it’s like a bigger version of some Caddy Twin Turbo V-6s. If a Z/28 happens, it’ll have something like this.

[Doug Halsey]

I guess my point is that the " Camaro Z28 with LT5 Power Sounds Better Than Ever" is highly unlikely. Due to the fact that the fifth gen (a great car that I own) wasn't planned out correctly. That GM did learn from that mistake and that the ZL1 & Zl1 LE was the easy answer that was in a similar formula as the Ford GT350 & GT350R. That if GM is smart they will wait until the 7th gen to do another Z/28. By then it will just be another add/subtraction package. Not another engine.

That GM is about making money for the long term and not a short term splash that will again ruin their reputation - like they did with Cadillac.

At least that is my hope. I like that they are willing to take risks and they support us car enthusiast. But I hate to be buying a car that is already out dated before they are all sold. That was the case with the Z/28 because it took until 2017 before all the new Z/28's were sold. Sad

This then hurt resales for those trying to buy first year and sell when the next model comes out. Yes you take a hit, but a half price hit? That was crazy!

It was bad marketing. It was making way too many of a car that only a few want. It was non-forward thinking!!!!

[LateBrakeU2]

Originally Posted by Doug Halsey

I guess my point is that the " Camaro Z28 with LT5 Power Sounds Better Than Ever"

It was bad marketing. It was making way too many of a car that only a few want. It was non-forward thinking!!!!

I don't think you can blame them entirely. They listened to all the tough talk and want about a track animal, they built it and it didn't sell. As far as volume, they will end up making more GT350R's than Z's,and they are still commanding ADM's three years in to production. GM just doesn't have the brand loyalty of Ford/Shelby owners- they will be getting 20-30k ADM's for the new GT500 when that comes out too. I have both a Z and R, to me they represent the two best NA road race based pony cars ever that will be built by GM and Ford.

[Matos1LE]

Originally Posted by Doug Halsey

Look at what Ford did with the GT350 & the GT350R. Those cars are keeping their value because Ford made just enough GT350R’s to create demand and then sold a lot of GT350’s. Look at what GM did with the Z/28. It put in ceramic breaks, spool dampeners, a 427 and sticky tires and lost money on new car sales.

GT350s routinely sell used at MSRP around here. Selling used at MSRP sounds like holding value, until you factor in the 20-30k dealer markups that were slapped on them. No matter how you slice it, they've already devalued 20-30k. A new car is not an investment (unless you are buying a GT Porsche or other rarefied exotic). I'll stick to my Camaro.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by LateBrakeU2

I don't think you can blame them entirely. They listened to all the tough talk and want about a track animal, they built it and it didn't sell. As far as volume, they will end up making more GT350R's than Z's,and they are still commanding ADM's three years in to production. GM just doesn't have the brand loyalty of Ford/Shelby owners- they will be getting 20-30k ADM's for the new GT500 when that comes out too. I have both a Z and R, to me they represent the two best NA road race based pony cars ever that will be built by GM and Ford.

The bulk of Z/28 production happened as the new gen6 was revealed so it already looked dated. Compare that to the GT350 whose volume trickled out on a new platform with better ergonomics and options. After three model years, it still not equal so am I to assume Ford is making a 2018, fourth model year?

Z/28
2014 - 515
2015 – 1,292
Total - 1,807

GT350R
2015 – 37
2016 - 526
2017 - 905
Total - 1,468

Bottom line
- Chevy overproduced in the last year of the generation.
- Volume eliminates ADM once the guys that must be first get theirs.
- Availability to average buyers for under MSRP beats limiting them to only the rich. The bad old days when cars like the 87 GNX were not even a consideration for regular people.

[LateBrakeU2]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The bulk of Z/28 production happened as the new gen6 was revealed so it already looked dated. Compare that to the GT350 whose volume trickled out on a new platform with better ergonomics and options. After three model years, it still not equal so am I to assume Ford is making a 2018, fourth model year?

Z/28
2014 - 515
2015 – 1,292
Total - 1,807

GT350R
2015 – 37
2016 - 526
2017 - 905
Total - 1,468

Bottom line
- Chevy overproduced in the last year of the generation.
- Volume eliminates ADM once the guys that must be first get theirs.
- Availability to average buyers for under MSRP beats limiting them to only the rich. The bad old days when cars like the 87 GNX were not even a consideration for regular people.

Yes 18 R's are at dealers and they will be producing them through spring. Ford just announced that MY 18 will be the end of the FPC.

IMO what killed the Z/28 was releasing it nearly simultaneously with the LT4 ZO6. For only 10k more it was an easy choice for most. GM further exacerbated the Z free fall with the 20% off sale only a few months after release. Yes, they screwed the pooch once again with bad timing and over production.

[Doug Halsey]

Originally Posted by LateBrakeU2

Yes 18 R's are at dealers and they will be producing them through spring. Ford just announced that MY 18 will be the end of the FPC.

IMO what killed the Z/28 was releasing it nearly simultaneously with the LT4 ZO6. For only 10k more it was an easy choice for most. GM further exacerbated the Z free fall with the 20% off sale only a few months after release. Yes, they screwed the pooch once again with bad timing and over production.

Well said.

[Deakins]

I think at the end of the day it's really pretty simple. Everyone likes the idea of a very fast "track animal" until they have to live with it and part with large sums of money for it. If you have $80,000 dollars to pay for a car that you trailer around to tracks all over America and only drive it at events awesome, good for you. However, you don't represent much if hardly any of the general buying population. Most will spend a good amount of time using their Camaro as a car. That means, spouses, children, friends, and coworkers end up spending time in the car and have some bearing on what is purchased. A car like the ZL1 can be justified and used everyday going to work, and can rock it out on the track. A car like the supposed Z/28 can certainly do well on the track...but let's be real here...it's not a very good CAR to operate everyday for the vast majority of the people who are in the market to buy it.

If cars don't sell, GM doesn't make money...and if they don't make money they can't make the car. Hence why, I hope we never see another Camaro with carbon ceramic matrix brakes on it...and for that matter...another resource sucking project using old dated technology (except for the dssv's) that doesn't advance anything for the Camaro line up.

[Reefblue42]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

They have already ruined the Z06 by making it a do everything car. There’s no reason to do the same to the Z/28. Keep it N/A or leave it in the past. Some things should be left alone.

^^This!! But I do hope the LT5 makes into the 6th gen swan song version before the 7th gen debuts.

[2SSRS@Gen5diy]

Originally Posted by Deakins

I think at the end of the day it's really pretty simple. Everyone likes the idea of a very fast "track animal" until they have to live with it and part with large sums of money for it. If you have $80,000 dollars to pay for a car that you trailer around to tracks all over America and only drive it at events awesome, good for you. However, you don't represent much if hardly any of the general buying population. Most will spend a good amount of time using their Camaro as a car. That means, spouses, children, friends, and coworkers end up spending time in the car and have some bearing on what is purchased. A car like the ZL1 can be justified and used everyday going to work, and can rock it out on the track. A car like the supposed Z/28 can certainly do well on the track...but let's be real here...it's not a very good CAR to operate everyday for the vast majority of the people who are in the market to buy it.

If cars don't sell, GM doesn't make money...and if they don't make money they can't make the car. Hence why, I hope we never see another Camaro with carbon ceramic matrix brakes on it...and for that matter...another resource sucking project using old dated technology (except for the dssv's) that doesn't advance anything for the Camaro line up.

And for a DD cars GM make a lot of models, in the camaros line there are some 10 cars you can buy, but if you want to live up the the Z/28 name plate its going to be a track car that can be driven on the street.

[BoostedX2]

I just for the life of me do not know why ford can come out with a hipo Bullitt with a tweaked 5.0 and Chevy cant tweak the LT1 to make a Z/28...Its all about the will to do it..

[Smokin19]

Originally Posted by 2SSRS@Gen5diy

And for a DD cars GM make a lot of models, in the camaros line there are some 10 cars you can buy, but if you want to live up the the Z/28 name plate its going to be a track car that can be driven on the street.

Took the words right of my mouth.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Deakins

I think at the end of the day it's really pretty simple. Everyone likes the idea of a very fast "track animal" until they have to live with it and part with large sums of money for it. If you have $80,000 dollars to pay for a car that you trailer around to tracks all over America and only drive it at events awesome, good for you. However, you don't represent much if hardly any of the general buying population. Most will spend a good amount of time using their Camaro as a car. That means, spouses, children, friends, and coworkers end up spending time in the car and have some bearing on what is purchased. A car like the ZL1 can be justified and used everyday going to work, and can rock it out on the track. A car like the supposed Z/28 can certainly do well on the track...but let's be real here...it's not a very good CAR to operate everyday for the vast majority of the people who are in the market to buy it.

If cars don't sell, GM doesn't make money...and if they don't make money they can't make the car. Hence why, I hope we never see another Camaro with carbon ceramic matrix brakes on it...and for that matter...another resource sucking project using old dated technology (except for the dssv's) that doesn't advance anything for the Camaro line up.

This is well said. I will also add that I want to drive a good handling and good looking car on the street. Since I'm not racing for money, the compromise for me would be more street and less race. My 69" z/28 was actually OK on the street, not as good as say a 340 Dart but livable. Well I did go for the cambered exhaust that was crazy...