[GreenZLE]

The push for EV's is based on the false premise that they'll save the earth because they're more energy efficient. The earth isnt dying, the earth doesnt have a fever, and mankinds impact is negligible.

Besides, the only thing that has actually happened to pollution is that its been exported to poor countries.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Texas1ss, we understand, this isn't the hill you want to die on. No need to call other people's opinions garbage, nor talk about your disdain for the "right-wing media" in every single post (5 times on this page alone).

Your horse and buggy analogy is not applicable, because EVs aren't new, they are in fact older than ICE cars, and indeed everyone understands them to the same extent they understand ICE, ranging from those with no clue what's under the hood or why the car moves all the way to enthusiasts. There are pros and cons to both propulsion technologies, and they could very well coexist, were it not for the strongarming on one side, and if anything, that is what riles opponents up, not the "right-wing media".

Also, your expectation about the OPEC taking this sort of hit lying down is rather naive, as if gasoline were the only use for their oil or they hadn't amassed a ludicrous amount of cash already that they can leverage.

Only commenting on the analogy with another analogy (I guess only someone like me would do that ) Comparing horse and buggy / automobile to ICE / EV is a very applicable analogy. Both indicate major shifts in how people approach transportation with heated discussion around infrastructure and emissions. Yes, there were early attempts at electric cars as well as steam (today’s fuel cell??) and others, but to say that today’s EVs can’t be viewed as a revolutionary approach is like saying personal computers weren’t a revolutionary change because we once had sliderules.

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by Texas1ss

garbage right-wing media

Constantly referring to this in such a manner shows your true colors.

Political discussions usually end up with members getting banned from this site I have noticed. You and I are on exact opposites of the political spectrum so this could easily go south very quickly for both of us.

Let’s just agree to disagree and move on with life.

[Evergreen6]

It's been a while since I've truly appreciated anyone's perspective on a forum, and MartinJlm is bringing it with fact and experience. Well done.

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Only commenting on the analogy with another analogy (I guess only someone like me would do that ) Comparing horse and buggy / automobile to ICE / EV is a very applicable analogy. Both indicate major shifts in how people approach transportation with heated discussion around infrastructure and emissions. Yes, there were early attempts at electric cars as well as steam (today’s fuel cell??) and others, but to say that today’s EVs can’t be viewed as a revolutionary approach is like saying personal computers weren’t a revolutionary change because we once had sliderules.

It’s comparing apples and oranges. Horse and buggy. Slide rule and PC. Not even close to any relevance to the ICE/EV debate.

An EV still has 4 wheels, and looks and operates like any regular ICE. Put it in drive and you have an accelerator, brake pedal, steering wheel, and turn signal stalk. In fact the basic operation of any of the most modern Rivian or Tesla or Hummer EV is exactly the same as a 1957 Chevy Bel Air with fuel injection and an automatic.

[detamble13]

For anyone on here bitching about the demise of the ICE without a car worth keeping I'd suggest start saving, get your spouse on board and go out and buy one. There is certainly no guarantee V8 manual cars will exist in the not too distant future but we've had plenty of warning they might be going away. The dwindling manual offerings have been discussed for as long as I've been on the forum but there are still options. It was predicted horses would go extinct but they're still around. Private ownership seems expensive but I also haven't actually looked into that as I have no desire to own a horse.

The majority of people don't want to pollute the air anymore than necessary to maintain their current quality of living. I don't think the gas engines rise to prominence happened by accident. The current shortcomings of BEVs in relation to their ICE counterpart approximately 116 years after the introduction of the Model T shows why gas has been the preferred fuel. Maybe if they were forced to develop BEVs over the same time period they would be superior but we should recognize there would also be an environmental impact there as well.

I think carbon capture technology should receive government funding as well. Not sure if it does currently but if C02 is the enemy, and removing it is possible, then lets look at all avenues to accomplish the goal. Not to say we should burn as much fuel as possible but there is a strong focus on individual car ownership when there are other emitters that can be looked at. Is private flight going to looked at as unnecessary one day? Do you need to go on that cruise? It's not an electric ship, yet.

The messaging is off to me and creating new products, factories and fuel sources while abandoning what has worked for a long time doesn't take into consideration the emissions that will be created while on the path to creating parity with what already exists. Telling customers to keep their vehicles longer isn't good business sense though. Maybe just a more measured approach to cutting emissions would yield greater results and get more on board as opposed to a forced adoption.

There also might just be too many people on earth vying for the same resources and our global population could reach a point where we see just how many people the earth can sustain. I'm hoping I won't be around for that.

[S1lent]

Originally Posted by olrocker

It’s comparing apples and oranges. Horse and buggy. Slide rule and PC. Not even close to any relevance to the ICE/EV debate.

An EV still has 4 wheels, and looks and operates like any regular ICE. Put it in drive and you have an accelerator, brake pedal, steering wheel, and turn signal stalk. In fact the basic operation of any of the most modern Rivian or Tesla or Hummer EV is exactly the same as a 1957 Chevy Bel Air with fuel injection and an automatic.

You seem to be stuck thinking of the comparison in a narrow window of how they operate. Everyone else is looking at it from a much broader view of societal impact/feelings and infrastructure.


If your goal is to compare fruit, apples and oranges make a great comparison. If your goal is to compare things that are red, apples and oranges wouldn't be apt.

[genxer]

In a way battery electric is more like a horse. It requires more constant feeding, and more attention in deep cold. Nothing against horses here, no one in my direct ancestry had a personal auto until the 50's.

Hertz dumped a bunch of Teslas that weren't great as rental fleet, many used by rideshare drivers. Okay they're working on a cheaper car(maybe part of the from Mexico problem). I'd look for how they're pricing/moving on used dealer lots. And their cost to insure/propensity to be totalled.

The Toyoda chairman recently predicted EV will settle at 30% of the market.

This guy is isn't right-winger. Posted a new Deloitte study that 6% in the US prefer EV for their next vehicle, and i.c.e. is up to 67% from 58% in 2023: https://mishtalk.com/economics/only-...-next-vehicle/. He also posted the government towards it's rules multiplies EV mpg equivalents by 6.67.

GM has billions invested in assembling Lithium-Cobalt parts into cells, then battery packs, then into vehicles. This when their customer base just might be on the conservative (small c) side of a (30% or whatever) plateau.

I realize there is a "goodnight Sam","goodnight Ralph" Looney Tunes element to some people's positions. Some of us are just saying that your baby is ugly, even if we get punched in the face.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by genxer

… Some of us are just saying that your baby is ugly, even if we get punched in the face.

Dammit I’m going to have to copyright that phrase.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Your point is solid. The (3) biggest hurdles to EV adoption are

1. Price
2. Range
3. Infrastructure

Anything else is talking way above the customer’s head. Range is the easiest one to deal with. There are two approaches. Actually sort of a blending of both approaches. You can make batteries more efficient, which has happened and continues to improve or you can add battery capacity which is also being done. When you look at where battery technology has come in just 15 short years from when EVs had sub 100 mile ranges had 85 mph top speeds and would barely clip a turtle in the quarter mile. Today we have groupings of vehicles with 250, 300+, 400+ and even a couple 500 mile range vehicles. We have sub-3.0 second 0-60 and sub 10-second quarter miles and close to 200 mph top speeds. And there is a lot of room for even more improvement.

Infrastructure is getting a boost from federal funding pushed out to the states for implementation. The 50 highway miles between DC fast charger installations is a federal guideline that states are funded to implement. Some states are moving faster on this than others. The shift by almost every EV manufacturer to use the Tesla NACS system starting in 2025 automatically opens up thousands of reliable charging stations coast to coast for most EV drivers.

Price…the final frontier. This is where they separate the men from the boys so to speak. Tesla has such a huge head start it has to be looked at as Tesla’s price position and everyone else’s price position. Early on Tesla bled money. Lost tens of thousands of dollars on every vehicle sold. That’s way behind in their rearview now and they are pretty much printing money. Everyone else, including the big legacy OEMs like Ford and GM are still in the bleed money phase of the product cycle. Today Tesla has actually achieved parity with ICE vehicles. This is what I posted a couple pages back relative to the drop in prices on used Teslas…



Tesla is dropping these prices because they can. Period. Model 3 and Model Y are cost competitive BEFORE incentive with similarly equipped ICE vehicles. When we bought our Model Y I priced a comparably equipped Chevrolet Blazer RS AWD. To be comparably equipped that meant the Blazer had to have AWD, Adaptive Cruise, panoramic sunroof, front and rear heated seats, 20” black wheels, rear cargo cover. Price for the Blazer was $52,810. Price for the Model Y was $52,790. And I might even qualify for the $7,500 incentive. That is price parity.

Range is less of the issue now.

Even charging the ID4 to 80% results in 245 miles which about when I had to fill up my LaCrosse. It had a small tank. It's the "perception" that it's a problem is the problem.

Most EVs from GM are 300 plus miles for range now. Only the Nissan Leaf is under 200 that I know of.

So while I agree, the actual issue isn't range by itself, as even 200 miles would be much less of an issue if you could a) find easy public charging that b) didn't take 30 minutes. I am 10 minutes from a charger that can give me 100 miles range in 30 minutes. That's a Level 3 DC charger. Home charging makes it a no brainer.

And your parity comparison is spot on. The issue is GM hasn't reached parity within its own products. Lyriq is $15,000 more than an XT5. Blazer EV? At least $10,000 over a comparable Blazer. Probably not completely accurate but close. When it's a "free" choice then we'll see.

[Texas1ss]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Your point is solid. The (3) biggest hurdles to EV adoption are

1. Price
2. Range
3. Infrastructure

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Only commenting on the analogy with another analogy (I guess only someone like me would do that ) Comparing horse and buggy / automobile to ICE / EV is a very applicable analogy. Both indicate major shifts in how people approach transportation with heated discussion around infrastructure and emissions. Yes, there were early attempts at electric cars as well as steam (today’s fuel cell??) and others, but to say that today’s EVs can’t be viewed as a revolutionary approach is like saying personal computers weren’t a revolutionary change because we once had sliderules.

Thanks, Martinjlm, and anybody else who saw what I was getting at. That was exactly my point when I first put up that post. A lot of the issues are the same, but one day they won't be, being cost, infrastructure, and to a lesser degree range. I was making fun of the excuses some media outlets like to use to bash on EVs.

The main issue I have is the disinformation that a lot of people regurgitate like it's fact because they don't have all the information or it's intentionally kept from them.

It's what led to my first post in this thread where somebody said the Texas grid a few years back failed because of Texas moving to solar and wind.

That's another talking point that's a blatant lie pushed out to the masses to disparage green energy. There's a lot of the same about EVs I see on a daily basis. I don't get it.

All that said, I'm an independent. I watch everything, trust neither Democrats or Republicans, and read everything for myself. Some people don't. Plus, I like facts. You've done a good job of putting quite a bit of that out there, Martinjlm, that it's quite possible many here have never heard of or read.

I'm just glad I can still enjoy my 2016 SS, or 2024 if I can find one to my specs, for years to come. EVs might be the future, but to me right now they're boring as hell. Maybe the new Dodge coming out will change my mind.

And as much as I say I'd never buy an EV Camaro, I can't do it. I might end up eating my words one day if they come back. Going to be interesting to see.

Edit:

Originally Posted by olrocker

It’s comparing apples and oranges. Horse and buggy. Slide rule and PC. Not even close to any relevance to the ICE/EV debate.

An EV still has 4 wheels, and looks and operates like any regular ICE. Put it in drive and you have an accelerator, brake pedal, steering wheel, and turn signal stalk. In fact the basic operation of any of the most modern Rivian or Tesla or Hummer EV is exactly the same as a 1957 Chevy Bel Air with fuel injection and an automatic.

Originally Posted by S1lent

You seem to be stuck thinking of the comparison in a narrow window of how they operate. Everyone else is looking at it from a much broader view of societal impact/feelings and infrastructure.


If your goal is to compare fruit, apples and oranges make a great comparison. If your goal is to compare things that are red, apples and oranges wouldn't be apt.

Thank you. You nailed it. I missed this earlier.

[olrocker]

The disinformation insinuation is a joke. Because the reasons E.V. is failing are real, and will continue to be.

I guess I should join the accusation party and say it’s clear here who follows the biased left wing media.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by olrocker

The disinformation insinuation is a joke. Because the reasons E.V. is failing are real, and will continue to be.

I guess I should join the accusation party and say it’s clear here who follows the biased left wing media.

Every year, there are more on the road. That's an interesting way of "failing".

There are lots up here in Alaska. They are out there driving on the road all the time.

When I was a kid, an EV was total science fiction. And now they are operating on every road that you and I are.

Yeah, not for everyone at this point, some areas like aviation need energy dense fuel and for longer flights, it's not on the horizon yet as being practical, same with ships and such. But even with trucking, it's foreseeable that battery swapping and rapid charging could be the future. Some people are totally unhinged when it comes to EVs for some reason. My parents were freaking out in AZ (at high altitude where it's very temperate) about "but what if they run out of electricity!!?" whenever they saw one. Mind you, they even never drive that far and are probably perfect for one, but the inability to try something different has them frozen with fear. I know an oil exec that has sworn off any ICE cars, with a hotrod Tesla that I got to drive. He said he never gets tired of the acceleration and you gotta admit, 99% of people that want a fast car just want something that goes fast in a straight line. People fearing the EVs tend to fill their heads with all kinds of crap and claim that some giant "switch" will be pulled and then all of a sudden all the ICE cars will be banned from the road after that date.

Just breath slowly, it'll be OK.

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Every year, there are more on the road. That's an interesting way of "failing".

There are lots up here in Alaska. They are out there driving on the road all the time.

When I was a kid, an EV was total science fiction. And now they are operating on every road that you and I are.

Yeah, not for everyone at this point, some areas like aviation need energy dense fuel and for longer flights, it's not on the horizon yet as being practical, same with ships and such. But even with trucking, it's foreseeable that battery swapping and rapid charging could be the future. Some people are totally unhinged when it comes to EVs for some reason. My parents were freaking out in AZ (at high altitude where it's very temperate) about "but what if they run out of electricity!!?" whenever they saw one. Mind you, they even never drive that far and are probably perfect for one, but the inability to try something different has them frozen with fear. I know an oil exec that has sworn off any ICE cars, with a hotrod Tesla that I got to drive. He said he never gets tired of the acceleration and you gotta admit, 99% of people that want a fast car just want something that goes fast in a straight line. People fearing the EVs tend to fill their heads with all kinds of crap and claim that some giant "switch" will be pulled and then all of a sudden all the ICE cars will be banned from the road after that date.

Just breath slowly, it'll be OK.

So the fact that sales have fallen off a cliff after the early adapters got theirs and now every car dealer in America has written and petitioned the feds to back the fudge off the E.V. mandates because they - unlike the feds and apparently some people on this forum - know their customer base and thus see there’s going to be a max market saturation of these cars of maybe 20-30%.

I don’t need to breathe slowly, I’m good - I’m stating facts that many on here flat out ignore. Or refuse to admit to, because, they’re right and I’m wrong. Because, right-wing media and all you know?