[Number 3]

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

Camaro fuel economy is going to improve due to the lighter body anyway. GM's never going to get the Camaro into the 37 mpg range and shouldn't try. They should sell sports versions of extremely fuel efficient cars instead.

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

No, you're missing the point. No Camaro fan's looking forward to an economical Camaro. That's the government who is, not the fans. This is a fan site. Go to welcometogovernmentbullshit.gov and post on their forums if you're looking for a pat on the back for turning Camaros into Civics.

Same goes for FenwickHockey65. Both of you guys are trying to make us enjoy the epic BS coming down the pike in the car industry, and it's not going to happen.

Wow!!! Holy crap! Seriously?

Not too many bigger supporters of the Camaro then us and I'm pretty sure you don't know my history here or you wouldn't have made that challenge.

You can stick your head in the ground all you want and pretend our government hasn't done this to us but it has. That is the point.

The business end of it is if you want viable Camaro in the future that you can call "American Muscle" then you will have to accept the fact as GM will that CAFE will set the automotive future whether you like it or not.

As an enthusiast (and I won't challenge more than you as I don't claim to know you) I can assure you that discussion absolutely belongs in an enthusiast site. It's the future of everyone that love driving, not just muscle cars, but just driving and enjoying your car. You want to get even darker into the future imagine the Camaro that drives itself. Imagine roads you won't be able to drive on if you don't have an autonomous automobile that is wirelessly connected.

You may not want to have that conversation either but it's coming.

Please refrain from you challenges that we go to other websites. As an enthusiast since the day I turned a key, I can assure you those conversations belong here and more importantly outside of here. The government wants nothing more than to take the wheel out of your and my hands.

Also, don't get me wrong, but for the Camaro to succeed it needs reasonable sales volumes. The fact that the LS, LT and SS have sold so well has enabled Z cars, ZL1 and Z/28. Neither would likely exist if the Camaro did not sell. In the future, very near future when the Chinese market doubles and the pressure on oil goes beyond what we've ever seen, the Camaro WILL have to sell in a CAFE driven world. If not then our "muscle" car will simply die. Likely of course to be replaced by electric propulsion of some kind or another. The future is happening no matter how much you don't want it to. That doesn't mean the Camaro has to be a Civic. But it does mean the Camaro will have to become a world class coupe that is CAFE compliant.

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

No, you're missing the point. No Camaro fan's looking forward to an economical Camaro. That's the government who is, not the fans. This is a fan site. Go to welcometogovernmentbullshit.gov and post on their forums if you're looking for a pat on the back for turning Camaros into Civics.

Same goes for FenwickHockey65. Both of you guys are trying to make us enjoy the epic BS coming down the pike in the car industry, and it's not going to happen.

Way to put words in others mouths.

Please point out where Number 3 or Fenwick ever said they are looking FORWARD to "economy" sports cars? In what posts have they tried to say we should enjoy what is coming??

They haven't, so stop saying they are.

What they ARE, are informed individuals telling us what's coming down the industry pipeline. Surely you can understand the difference right???

[90503]

Rather than worry about a 6th Gen with an I-4 as if it's an abomination of some kind, I think the fact that we've had the option to enjoy high-powered V-8s up to this point is somewhat the exception rather than the rule...

And for the foreseeable future even more powerful V-8s will be available in the 6th Gen.....Throw in an I-4 to meet CAFE and still have V-8s, if that's what it takes I'm all for it....

The more things change, the more they stay the same....First Gens, probably all gens of Camaro sold way more pedestrian, non-hi-end muscle versions. The I-4 is the new entry level version...no biggie...If anything the rules and regs will also make the cars much lighter....All the better for the V-8 option.....

[2010-1SS-IBM]

Originally Posted by Number 3

You can stick your head in the ground all you want and pretend our government hasn't done this to us but it has. That is the point.

So if I don't get behind every change, I'm sticking my head in the ground huh? Did you mention that in the 384679846798476 2014 tail light threads? I'm certainly not the only one who's not looking forward to a 4 cylinder Camaro. I guess we'll all shut up (aka "enjoy it").

Originally Posted by Number 3

The business end of it is if you want viable Camaro in the future that you can call "American Muscle" then you will have to accept the fact as GM will that CAFE will set the automotive future whether you like it or not.

The business end of Camaros really has nothing to do with their fuel economy (other than "not atrocious"). Accept it.

Originally Posted by Number 3

As an enthusiast (and I won't challenge more than you as I don't claim to know you) I can assure you that discussion absolutely belongs in an enthusiast site. It's the future of everyone that love driving, not just muscle cars, but just driving and enjoying your car. You want to get even darker into the future imagine the Camaro that drives itself. Imagine roads you won't be able to drive on if you don't have an autonomous automobile that is wirelessly connected.

You forgot hover cars. We were told they were right around the corner as well.

Originally Posted by Number 3

Please refrain from you challenges that we go to other websites. As an enthusiast since the day I turned a key, I can assure you those conversations belong here and more importantly outside of here. The government wants nothing more than to take the wheel out of your and my hands.

Please refrain from telling us to accept it. If a 4 cylinder Camaro was the next big thing, it would have already been built because the marketplace would have demanded it and the people at GM would have been more than happy to sell it to them. That's reality.

Originally Posted by Number 3

Also, don't get me wrong, but for the Camaro to succeed it needs reasonable sales volumes. The fact that the LS, LT and SS have sold so well has enabled Z cars, ZL1 and Z/28. Neither would likely exist if the Camaro did not sell.

V6's and V8's drive sales? The deuce you say!

Or:

And how many Z cars did the 4 cylinder models enable?

Originally Posted by Number 3

In the future, very near future when the Chinese market doubles and the pressure on oil goes beyond what we've ever seen, the Camaro WILL have to sell in a CAFE driven world. If not then our "muscle" car will simply die. Likely of course to be replaced by electric propulsion of some kind or another. The future is happening no matter how much you don't want it to. That doesn't mean the Camaro has to be a Civic. But it does mean the Camaro will have to become a world class coupe that is CAFE compliant.

Thanks for the Red Dawn synopsis, but it's not reality. First off, oil, lol. Read a newspaper. We're finding more oil everywhere. The US is currently pumping more oil than it can both refine and export. Think about that for a minute. Now factor in the rest of the world catching on to US oil drilling techniques. Oil is not going away, or becoming less abundant. Apologies to the peak oil crowd...

Second, who says the Chinese wouldn't want the same things Americans want? What's Chinese for "I could have had a V8!?!?" Imagine the uproar on that forum...

Third, don't fall for the "our way is the only way" argument. It's bit the US automakers before, to their lament. US car buyers will buy what they want.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

So if I don't get behind every change, I'm sticking my head in the ground huh? Did you mention that in the 384679846798476 2014 tail light threads? I'm certainly not the only one who's not looking forward to a 4 cylinder Camaro. I guess we'll all shut up (aka "enjoy it").



The business end of Camaros really has nothing to do with their fuel economy (other than "not atrocious"). Accept it.



You forgot hover cars. We were told they were right around the corner as well.



Please refrain from telling us to accept it. If a 4 cylinder Camaro was the next big thing, it would have already been built because the marketplace would have demanded it and the people at GM would have been more than happy to sell it to them. That's reality.



V6's and V8's drive sales? The deuce you say!

Or:

And how many Z cars did the 4 cylinder models enable?



Thanks for the Red Dawn synopsis, but it's not reality. First off, oil, lol. Read a newspaper. We're finding more oil everywhere. The US is currently pumping more oil than it can both refine and export. Think about that for a minute. Now factor in the rest of the world catching on to US oil drilling techniques. Oil is not going away, or becoming less abundant. Apologies to the peak oil crowd...

Second, who says the Chinese wouldn't want the same things Americans want? What's Chinese for "I could have had a V8!?!?" Imagine the uproar on that forum...

Third, don't fall for the "our way is the only way" argument. It's bit the US automakers before, to their lament. US car buyers will buy what they want.

Yikes.

I'll let you have your misconceptions of my points, but I do suggest you look at China and it's impact.

1st, the Chinese car market JUST past the U.S. as number 1 in the world. When I was at GM the President of GM China came in and gave a presentation that projected the Chines car market would TRIPLE in the next 10 to 15 years. And if you research China, the V8 tax by displacement for a 6.2L is over 50% of the cars value.

As for 4 cylinders enabling future Camaros? Well as I said you have to have the volume. Have you forgotten your history already? 2000/2001 were great years for the Camaro. Not only did we not get higher performance special editions we also go no more Camaro for 10 years. Ouch. If CAFE rules the world, the Camaro will have to be compliant.

I'm not sure why people are so militant about a 4 cylinder Camaro. There was one in our past. It sucked mind you and by todays standards, the old 2.8L V6 my dad had in his 82 Camaro essentially was a 4 cylinder.

So again, I'm really puzzled why you are so angry with this topic and my posts. I'm simply stating some information that goes into car programs. Had a few years of experience in that area. I understand the impact of PAFE and CAFE and how it relates to sales volumes and how those sales volumes impact other car programs. Just trying to pass on that information. I'm sorry that you would rather argue about it. Frankly I wish you would take what appears to be a great passion for not having a 4 cylinder Camaro and put that to use in calling your Congressmen and women to voice your position on this matter. What you are hitting on whether you know it or not is our future as car enthusiasts.

So if you think my suggesting everyone get ready for CAFE and it's impact on us as enthusiasts and on the cars we enthusiasts love to talk about in forums like this is a bad thing, then I'll simply sign off this thread and let you believe I'm a crack pot for suggesting there might have to be a 4 cylinder in a Camaro to achieve 37 mpg which is mandated by law for the Camaros current footprint. Putting the Camaro on an Alpha platform won't fix that. Super future V6 engines with DOD will help. But keep in mind the lightweight ATS with a 2.5L 4 cylinder is EPA rated at 33 along with it's 195 HP.

[2010-1SS-IBM]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Yikes.

I'll let you have your misconceptions of my points, but I do suggest you look at China and it's impact.

1st, the Chinese car market JUST past the U.S. as number 1 in the world. When I was at GM the President of GM China came in and gave a presentation that projected the Chines car market would TRIPLE in the next 10 to 15 years. And if you research China, the V8 tax by displacement for a 6.2L is over 50% of the cars value.

As for 4 cylinders enabling future Camaros? Well as I said you have to have the volume. Have you forgotten your history already? 2000/2001 were great years for the Camaro. Not only did we not get higher performance special editions we also go no more Camaro for 10 years. Ouch. If CAFE rules the world, the Camaro will have to be compliant.

I'm not sure why people are so militant about a 4 cylinder Camaro. There was one in our past. It sucked mind you and by todays standards, the old 2.8L V6 my dad had in his 82 Camaro essentially was a 4 cylinder.

So again, I'm really puzzled why you are so angry with this topic and my posts. I'm simply stating some information that goes into car programs. Had a few years of experience in that area. I understand the impact of PAFE and CAFE and how it relates to sales volumes and how those sales volumes impact other car programs. Just trying to pass on that information. I'm sorry that you would rather argue about it. Frankly I wish you would take what appears to be a great passion for not having a 4 cylinder Camaro and put that to use in calling your Congressmen and women to voice your position on this matter. What you are hitting on whether you know it or not is our future as car enthusiasts.

So if you think my suggesting everyone get ready for CAFE and it's impact on us as enthusiasts and on the cars we enthusiasts love to talk about in forums like this is a bad thing, then I'll simply sign off this thread and let you believe I'm a crack pot for suggesting there might have to be a 4 cylinder in a Camaro to achieve 37 mpg which is mandated by law for the Camaros current footprint. Putting the Camaro on an Alpha platform won't fix that. Super future V6 engines with DOD will help. But keep in mind the lightweight ATS with a 2.5L 4 cylinder is EPA rated at 33 along with it's 195 HP.

I don't understand how you don't get that it's not wanted. What happens to cars that aren't wanted?

[GearBangr]

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

I don't understand how you don't get that it's not wanted. What happens to cars that aren't wanted?

Haha!

[nak3dsnake]

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

I don't understand how you don't get that it's not wanted. What happens to cars that aren't wanted?

What you don't seem to understand is that it can and possibly will happen whether you like it or not. All of this has been explained to you in very precise and factual manner, while all you've done is thrown a hissy fit. Very odd.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

I don't understand how you don't get that it's not wanted. What happens to cars that aren't wanted?

I don't understand how you think that because it isn't wanted ever prevented the government passing a law to make it so.

You have a lot of passion about this it is clear. I just hope you can funnel it toward the government that believes we do want this.

Fuel economy is important. If it weren't no one would buy a V6. I think it's about half of Camaro sales. What GM and the other OEMs have to do is find that wonderful balance that meets FE, Emisions, and performance. They did it in the 80s and again in the early 2000s. The issue is only whether you care how many cylinders it takes to do that.

[2010-1SS-IBM]

Originally Posted by nak3dsnake

What you don't seem to understand is that it can and possibly will happen whether you like it or not. All of this has been explained to you in very precise and factual manner, while all you've done is thrown a hissy fit. Very odd.

"whether I like it or not". Yeah, because it's all about me. The market is not asking for a 4 cylinder Camaro. Stop making this personal and think with your brain. I'm willing to bet you can't do that.

[2010-1SS-IBM]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I don't understand how you think that because it isn't wanted ever prevented the government passing a law to make it so.

You have a lot of passion about this it is clear. I just hope you can funnel it toward the government that believes we do want this.

Fuel economy is important. If it weren't no one would buy a V6. I think it's about half of Camaro sales. What GM and the other OEMs have to do is find that wonderful balance that meets FE, Emisions, and performance. They did it in the 80s and again in the early 2000s. The issue is only whether you care how many cylinders it takes to do that.

Wow, just wow. THERE'S NO MARKET FOR A 4 CYLINDER CAMARO!

So it doesn't matter what the reason is for building it, or how much you dislike the people telling you this. I'm really getting tired of repeating the obvious just to be slammed by people apparently working on their psychological degrees...

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

Wow, just wow. THERE'S NO MARKET FOR A 4 CYLINDER CAMARO!

So it doesn't matter what the reason is for building it, or how much you dislike the people telling you this. I'm really getting tired of repeating the obvious just to be slammed by people apparently working on their psychological degrees...

Really? No market? You've actually spent the money on clinics and a marketing study? You must have to have used all caps like that. Again there was already a 4 cylinder Camaro and they actually sold some.

If they make it perform well it will sell. Not saying how many but it would sell.

However, and most people seem to be missing the point, our government is trying to force the market with CAFE. That has been my only point and for some unexplainable reason some of you want to argue with me about what the market wants. Our government does not card one bit about whether or not enthusiasts on this site would buy a 4 cylinder or not. They WILL NOT ( appropriate use of caps ) raise gas taxes to drive us to smaller engines. They have simply legislated fuel economy requirements. Now maybe GM will invent a DOD V8 that runs on 2 cylinders and meets that standard. I don't know. But for now they don't have to do anything. But very soon they will need something to be compliant. 4 cylinder? Hybrid? Voltec propulsion? Who knows.

But please guys, for all our sakes, take this passion and direct it to Congress. Trying to shout me down won't change what's coming. It's just the law now. Sorry you don't want to believe it.

[2010-1SS-IBM]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Really? No market? You've actually spent the money on clinics and a marketing study?

No need, it's obvious.

Originally Posted by Number 3

You must have to have used all caps like that.

Just needed to draw attention to the important part that you keep ignoring in favor of pointing out whatever personal failings you think I have.

Originally Posted by Number 3

Again there was already a 4 cylinder Camaro and they actually sold some.

"Some".

Originally Posted by Number 3

If they make it perform well it will sell. Not saying how many but it would sell.

How many?

Originally Posted by Number 3

However, and most people seem to be missing the point, our government is trying to force the market with CAFE. That has been my only point and for some unexplainable reason some of you want to argue with me about what the market wants.

Here's a quote from Al Oppenheiser: "“We’re not following Ford”, Oppenheiser told AG during the 2013 SEMA show. “As long as they’ll pay me to be the chief engineer, I’m going to fight for every horsepower I can and every cylinder I can."

He get's it. Why don't you?

Or rather, why do you think Al is being obtuse about not accepting 4 cylinders, as you so remarkably have? Is he also deranged?

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by nak3dsnake

Hey fen. Been a long time dude. I just graduated and cant be more ecstatic to be outta osu. Hows florida treating you?

Good to hear! It's pretty nice down here, I'm really enjoying my job. What are you up to now?