[Lou_Dorchen]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

In 2025 they will put speakers in the standard I-4's mufflers with DSP processing to simulate the V8 Sound.

They already have something similar on the market. It just uses the standard speakers, you dont have to install speakers on the mufflers.

http://www.soundracer.se/

[Lou_Dorchen]

Originally Posted by meissen

You stated what they're breaking right in your question -- the CAFE standards. When an automaker does not meet CAFE standards they get fined. According to Wikipedia: "Currently CAFE penalty is $55 USD per vehicle for every 1 mpg under the standard. For the year 2006 Mercedes-Benz draw $30.3 million penalty for violating fuel economy standards." While the $55 per vehicle seems like chump change and could be just figured into the MSRP of the vehicle, it does add up...

Assuming this is correct, it all but proves Captain Awesome's assertion that if the V8 is made but CAFE standards can't be met the cost will be passed on to the consumer (if not discontinued).

When San Francisco banned the Happy Meal, McDonald's came up with a brilliant idea to skirt it. The law as written prohibited toys to be given with food. So McDonald's kept the price the same, but did not include the toy. Then they offered customers the opportunity to purchase a toy, for $.10, with the purchase of a Happy Meal. So McDonald's profit margins on Happy Meals went up!

GM could do the same thing in essence. Say the Camaro V8 will fall short of the CAFE standard by 15mpg. GM would have to pay $825 in fines per V8 Camaro sold. They could pass on the $825 to customers, or they could even charge, say $1000, and thus increase their profit margins on V8 Camaros. Of course the Government could then increase CAFE standards and/or the fines, which would then raise the price further for V8 customers....

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Lou_Dorchen

Assuming this is correct, it all but proves Captain Awesome's assertion that if the V8 is made but CAFE standards can't be met the cost will be passed on to the consumer (if not discontinued).

When San Francisco banned the Happy Meal, McDonald's came up with a brilliant idea to skirt it. The law as written prohibited toys to be given with food. So McDonald's kept the price the same, but did not include the toy. Then they offered customers the opportunity to purchase a toy, for $.10, with the purchase of a Happy Meal. So McDonald's profit margins on Happy Meals went up!

GM could do the same thing in essence. Say the Camaro V8 will fall short of the CAFE standard by 15mpg. GM would have to pay $825 in fines per V8 Camaro sold. They could pass on the $825 to customers, or they could even charge, say $1000, and thus increase their profit margins on V8 Camaros. Of course the Government could then increase CAFE standards and/or the fines, which would then raise the price further for V8 customers....

But the CAFE standards are fleet-wide. So one car/engine can't fall short by itself. So it's not quite the same as the happy meal example.

If they run into trouble with the fleet average (remember, the EPA numbers are about 20-30% lower than was CAFE uses), they will probably avoid the fines at all costs by proactively charging more on "special cars" that have poor fuel economy, in order to limit the volume sold...that, and they'll do what they can with the small cars to increase average fuel economy.

[2010-1SS-IBM]

Or they may "water down" V8 engines in order to get better fuel economy out of them but still offer a V8.

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl

Don't really know. The difference in price between similarly equipped V6 and V8s run anywhere from $8K+ (1LS vs 1SS) and about $5K (2LT vs 2SS). $8K will buy a nice supercharger that puts the V6 at about the same power levels as the L99, albeit with less power down low but somewhat lighter. I'm not sure how much money (car + mods) it would take to get an L99 to ~550 RWHP, but I think my 2LT with mods would be in the $40-42K range.

You really cannot make valid comparisons based on the MSRP because the SS has an artifically inflated price that masks the actual price needed for the baseline.

Originally Posted by Lou_Dorchen

They already have something similar on the market. It just uses the standard speakers, you dont have to install speakers on the mufflers.

http://www.soundracer.se/

I thought you were going to point out the new electric car mandate that they emit noise for blind people to hear.

I suggest reflashing the audio memory with the digitized sound of George Jetson's car.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

But the CAFE standards are fleet-wide. So one car/engine can't fall short by itself. So it's not quite the same as the happy meal example.

If they run into trouble with the fleet average (remember, the EPA numbers are about 20-30% lower than was CAFE uses), they will probably avoid the fines at all costs by proactively charging more on "special cars" that have poor fuel economy, in order to limit the volume sold...that, and they'll do what they can with the small cars to increase average fuel economy.

Bear in mind that the basic affordable tiny car with small engine combo has been really milked dry as far as big advances in economy are concerned. If it currently gets 45MPG, there is not a great untapped reserve of MPGs in that segment, without resorting to exotic solutions that will make the car unaffordable to the segment target.

The only place they can find a lot of extra MPG ground to gain would be in the truck and specialty cars like Camaro. To make these gains, the camaro mileage is going to have to really go up, and that means:

Expect smaller engines for the majority of buyers.

Expect major price increases to pay for the engineering needed to raise the MPG of the Camaro.

Expect to pay an ungodly amount for the very limited V8 model.

This is the equvalent of charging $0.10 for the Happy Meal Toy and putting extra $1.10 items on the "Dollar Menu" for $1.00

Your toys are jacked up so someone else to get fat cheaply.

[lawdog]

I agree with one of the previous posts, that single most asked question should be enough to forever alert GM what American boys and girls dream about and desire, "Did your get the big V8 in that thing", I hear this more then any other comment or question.

[The_Blur]

Don't forget that a new generation of V8s is coming out, and we haven't really seen what GM can do as far direct injection and VVT on a platform specifically made for these technologies. The 3.6L V6 was modified to handle those new technologies. Imagine if an engine were designed from the start to include components that improved fuel economy and performance simultaneously.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Try to stay on-topic, gentlemen....

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

Bear in mind that the basic affordable tiny car with small engine combo has been really milked dry as far as big advances in economy are concerned. If it currently gets 45MPG, there is not a great untapped reserve of MPGs in that segment, without resorting to exotic solutions that will make the car unaffordable to the segment target.

I would normally agree with you, if it hadn't been said ad-naseum when the 30-35mpg cars came out. Somehow...they always figure out how to do it. I absolutely don't agree that we should regulate these advancements...but I do believe that more improvements will come with time.

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

The only place they can find a lot of extra MPG ground to gain would be in the truck and specialty cars like Camaro. To make these gains, the camaro mileage is going to have to really go up, and that means:

Expect smaller engines for the majority of buyers.

Expect major price increases to pay for the engineering needed to raise the MPG of the Camaro.

Expect to pay an ungodly amount for the very limited V8 model.

Don't pigeon-hole yourself into despair...It's not as bad as all that.

Yes, all vehicles will be required to make improvements in order to contribute to the company's overall average...but don't over-estimate the weight on Camaro's shoulders alone. It's not exactly a high-volume vehicle like Malibu, Impala, Cruze, or the trucks....

Camaro has a huge advantage over those vehicles...and that is that while it will always (I believe) have a V8 and, in general, have a performance model(s)...it also sells 1/2-3/4 it's volume in lower-powered V6 versions. These customers want a "sporty car", not necessarily a "fast" one. They want something that looks cool and puts a smile on their face. You don't need 400+ hp to achieve that goal. "Fun" has many definitions for many different people.

What that means, is that the Camaro team can take advantage of this portion of sales to integrate smaller, more fuel-efficient engines, that don't take away from the experience one bit. I know these people's dedication to the car...they won't build an "iron-duke". If it's not even a little bit exciting, it won't be engineered into a Camaro.

So yes, I agree we can expect to see some smaller engines for the larger Camaro market - but I don't see that as a bad thing, because they won't be bad cars. And I don't agree we'll see drastically increase prices for these cars. Increased, yes...but not enough to seriously alter the segment.

Then, they can implement less drastic changes on the higher performance models to achieve more marginal gains in fuel economy that keep up with the trend. As much as CAFE sucks...customers apparently look at these things, too. When competing, wouldn't you agree you want as many advantages as possible on paper? This won't cost "ungodly" amounts for a V8, especially if the LT1 is as good as they say it is....but it may cost some more. These changes won't harm performance, as per what I mentioned earlier about the Camaro team's dedication.

Now, a model like the ZL1...that's already very expensive, and relatively unattainable for most. I'm sure it won't be getting any cheaper...not a huge surprise, there...you get what you pay for in that example.

The SS and ZL1 models of Camaro...account for about just 1.5% of all Chevrolet's sold in the US...there are far bigger fish to fry, and Camaro will benefit from 1) the fact that CAFE is fleet-wide...and 2) the car has huge corporate support behind it.

I'll take things a step further, and say that I did some quick math...if you combine Volt sales with Camaro...the mpg numbers are *just* shy of the expected standard in 2025 or whatever the year is. Of course, that doesn't tell the whole fleet story, which I'm sure is much lower...it's just interesting, is all, and worth mentioning.

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Don't pigeon-hole yourself into despair...It's not as bad as all that.

Don't confuse "spreading the word" with "despair". I doubt you think Paul Revere was riding his horse out of despair.

I'm only using the Camaro as an example in this forum because the deleterious effects of CAFE will be much more apparent to the enthusiast when prices go up as performance and choices go down for the buyer.

CAFE has much more serious effects, but those are largely invisible to the average person. Partly due to the fact that the effects are confined to a small group of drivers over a long period of time. The CAFE standards caused between 1,300 and 2,600 traffic deaths every year since they were established in 1975 (National Academy of Sciences 2002). This is because the best way to achieve fuel economy is to build lighter cars, which do not protect passengers as well as heavier vehicles during traffic accidents.

People are generally unaware of these dangrous side effects of CAFE because this type of fact based reporting is actively suppressed from the major media outlets.

Then, they can implement less drastic changes on the higher performance models to achieve more marginal gains in fuel economy that keep up with the trend.

They are going to load them up with carbon fiber and exotic materials that cost a huge amount of money and are far from perfected (They can't even make cosmetic bits for the ZL1 without them coming apart). That stuff is hugely expensive, and is very brittle in impacts. Expect massive repair bills to go along with higher prices at the dealerships.

As much as CAFE sucks...customers apparently look at these things, too.

Since the CAFE numbers are different than the numbers on the window sticker, I doubt anyone looks at them when making a choice. They apply as an "average" across a fleet, not to specific models, so shopping based on CAFE would mean looking up fleet averages. Only the most wildly environmental customer would likely shop cars like this. I doubt anyone who ever bought a Camaro researched the GM fleet average.

When competing, wouldn't you agree you want as many advantages as possible on paper?

Actually, if a car company had the courage to stand up to this nonsense, I would be more likely to look at them. I would say that there are a large number of people who would go along with me.

This won't cost "ungodly" amounts for a V8, especially if the LT1 is as good as they say it is....but it may cost some more. These changes won't harm performance, as per what I mentioned earlier about the Camaro team's dedication.

We already know pretty well that there's a "premium" on the V8 Camaro. Even if the performance is there and people like the car, they will be punishing people that buy it, and denying lower income people from enjoying it, and depriving a certain number of people who cannot get an allocation.

Now, a model like the ZL1...that's already very expensive, and relatively unattainable for most. I'm sure it won't be getting any cheaper...not a huge surprise, there...you get what you pay for in that example.

The cost would be a lot less if there were no limits on production, and no subsidizing other models with premiums tacked on. The engineering is spread over a larger number of cars. Mass production resulting in huge savings thanks to the economy of scale. Think of how much more affordable the ZL1 would be if every 5th Gen made was a ZL1.

I'll take things a step further, and say that I did some quick math...if you combine Volt sales with Camaro...the mpg numbers are *just* shy of the expected standard in 2025 or whatever the year is. Of course, that doesn't tell the whole fleet story, which I'm sure is much lower...it's just interesting, is all, and worth mentioning.

That would be great except for the fact that I don't own a Volt, yet I have to pay for them.

[Mr. Wyndham]

I have no love of CAFE, and I promise you I've written certain officials continuously about the reasons why it should be at the very least adjusted, if not altogether repealed. So we're reading the same book...but I don't see things nearly as dark and dreary as you do.

That's what I meant with "despair", and the rest was to explain myself. I have no intention to debate the issue, here.

[camaro-dreamer]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

I'll take things a step further, and say that I did some quick math...if you combine Volt sales with Camaro...the mpg numbers are *just* shy of the expected standard in 2025 or whatever the year is. Of course, that doesn't tell the whole fleet story, which I'm sure is much lower...it's just interesting, is all, and worth mentioning.

Did you arrive at an arithmetic mean or a harmonic mean?

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by camaro-dreamer

Did you arrive at an arithmetic mean or a harmonic mean?

Arithmetic...factored different models sold and weighted the mpg of said models appropriately. Quick and dirty...

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

I have no love of CAFE, and I promise you I've written certain officials continuously about the reasons why it should be at the very least adjusted, if not altogether repealed. So we're reading the same book...but I don't see things nearly as dark and dreary as you do.

That's what I meant with "despair", and the rest was to explain myself. I have no intention to debate the issue, here.

I don't blame you for not taking up an indefensible position. :-)