[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by docwra

But where do you draw the line?
Ive had plenty of diesel/petrol workhorses, Id have preferred electric power in all of those in every situation apart from time critical 400+ mile journeys.
Id swap the W12 in my VW Phaeton for an EV in a second as it would be smoother, quieter and massively better on fuel.
Ive got an MR-S roadster ..... I like the way it goes on cam and the noise is definitely involving, but instant torque and twice the power would be rather nice too.
I actually have an Audi etron, theres no way Id go from over 60mpg to ~17mpg by swapping it for a slower ICE Q7.

In my Z28? No way, but its hardly an average vehicle, its a car built round an engine specifically to go round racetracks very fast.
My point is for most applications "soul" is irrelevant, and regardless of legislation special ICE cars arent going anywhere.

"Are EVs actually cleaner?" has come up many times in this thread, all Ill say is right now the UK is only using 24% fossil fuels for power generation; Ive no idea why someone would buy 3 EVs but only one Honda Civic in 20 years either

That’s why I said sports car. Diesel trucks have a purpose and EV can’t match them yet. I hate the black soot from diesels, would be nice if BEV could get to that duty level. I don’t care about soul in a truck or commuter.

Civics when well taken care of can last decades. EVs have a short lifespan. That’s why there will be 2-3 EVs sold for every Civic (or Corolla, Camry, etc.).

[Evergreen6]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

EVs have a short lifespan.

I'd be interested to see your data analysis here.

Tesla warranties their batteries for 8 years or 125k, and people are getting 200k+ with around only 10% capacity loss.

I'm not aware of any ICV manufacturer who warranties anything for 125k, are you?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by JamesMyBoy

Regarding the chart above...
Is there no graph of the Total emissions from manufacturing AND use of EVs?
Looks like we get the total for gas cars, but have to add all of the numbers for Electric cars to get the same metric?
Just wondering :-)

Originally Posted by m6-lt1

I don’t think you’re understanding the chart right. The entire bar is literally what you are asking for. It was broken down into parts for people to see how much emissions are created for all the aspects in which anti ev folks argue about.

Exactly. If you want the equivalent of the red lines, it’s the top of the stacked bars.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Gimme a break. How many EVs will last 155,000 miles? Gotta add 50% or more to all the EV emissions levels to be closer to apples to apples to account for building more EVs due to a shorter life span. Then compare that to a civic or other decently efficient ICE and the EV will likely have more emissions. Not to mention this is just looking at carbon dioxide. Not even taking into account other environmental attributes, which the EV is clearly worse.

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

Um, you may want to look at all the Teslas over 200k on the original battery.

And did you really care about saving the environment before you got mad at EV's? Probably not.

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

I'd be interested to see your data analysis here.

Tesla warranties their batteries for 8 years or 125k, and people are getting 200k+ with around only 10% capacity loss.

I'm not aware of any ICV manufacturer who warranties anything for 125k, are you?

The chapter on “how long does an EV last” has not been written yet. There is simply not enough real world data. But logic lands on the side of the EV lasting as long as if no longer than ICE simply from the standpoint of

1. Fewer moving / friction focused parts. Less things to wear out.
2. Modularity of build making many of the essential subsystems easily replaceable.

Let’s not conflate maintenance / longevity with repairability. Today EVs have a repairability problem. Parts distribution systems are not mature, especially for direct-to-customer sales (no dealership network). So they rely on the OE for parts supply to repair vehicles that have been physically damaged. This is not sustainable.

Add to that the tendency for BEVs to be over the air updatable via software upgrades and you have a scenario where owners are more likely to keep older vehicles that acquire new capabilities via upgrades. The Tesla we bought in November now has capabilities it did not have when we bought it. Nothing spectacular. Just things like the Lane Departure Warning indicators now show a red line next to the camera view of the lane we’re looking to merge into if something is in the blind spot. But the thing is, people who bought similar cars in 2018 receive most of the same upgrades and now have product capability equivalent to a brand new car on the lot. This is not unique to EVs. ICE manufacturers are starting to add the same capability. But the point is, the continuous system upgrades and feature enhancement goes a long way towards keeping the vehicle fresh.

Batteries are showing to last longer than originally expected provided the owners properly care for them and follow recommended charging instructions. A lot of owners are seeing single digit % drop off in the first year of operation, then leveling off for years. Proper care includes

• charging to 80% except for known long trips, then charge to 100%. Exception being LFP batteries which work better when consistently topped off at 100%
• Preconditioning the battery before using DC Fast Charging. Teslas and most newer EVs precondition when you set navigation to a charging station. Others have a button or a menu option to precondition.

[docwra]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

How many EVs will last 155,000 miles? Gotta add 50% or more to all the EV emissions levels to be closer to apples to apples to account for building more EVs due to a shorter life span. Then compare that to a civic or other decently efficient ICE and the EV will likely have more emissions. Not to mention this is just looking at carbon dioxide. Not even taking into account other environmental attributes, which the EV is clearly worse.

Youre assuming EVs only last half as long as EVs (they dont) and youre not taking into account clean power generation.
EVs are also constantly developing, getting more range per kW where ICE cars are about as economical as they are going to get.

And why just Co2? Theres at least 20 harmful materials coming out of ICE tailpipes, theres none coming out of EVs.

Other than that its a great argument.

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTpremium

That’s why I said sports car.

Sports cars account for 1-2% of total US annual sales. If ICE production does finish those numbers are hardly going to stop the world turning.

[lbls1]

Here are a few of my random thoughts. EVs are not a new automotive concept. The concept has been around for decades. It has been as recent as a decade that EVs are slowly but surely approaching the mainstream automotive genre. Its acceptance continues to be mixed, and some of the reasoning is valid.

One of those reasonings is reliability. As far as a mode of transportation, EVs (in my experience) are fine utensils of transportation. They can reach your destination with far less noise and pollution. The issue comes with re-charging and re-energizing. On average it takes far more time to re-charge a battery cell, and at this writing it is unclear about options for battery servicing and replacement.

In terms of real world reliability and acceptance, EVs have yet to exceed modern ICE vehicles. There are some factions that will refuse to give up ICE for EVs. If push came to shove, the majority of ICE owners will simply buy more Honda Civics, Toyota Corollas, and Chevrolet Silverado (yours truly included). ICE vehicles have endured at least ten decades of advancement, and the end result of some advancements are astonishing. Those advancements include power at any displacement, improved fuel efficiency, and technology advancements aimed at ICE vehicles.

However, I feel that alternative energy sources are needed, and should continue to advance in development and marketing. The objective should always be to develop an improvement in the means of reliable transportation for all.

[Evergreen6]

Originally Posted by lbls1

Here are a few of my random thoughts. EVs are not a new automotive concept. The concept has been around for decades. It has been as recent as a decade that EVs are slowly but surely approaching the mainstream automotive genre. Its acceptance continues to be mixed, and some of the reasoning is valid.

One of those reasonings is reliability. As far as a mode of transportation, EVs (in my experience) are fine utensils of transportation. They can reach your destination with far less noise and pollution. The issue comes with re-charging and re-energizing. On average it takes far more time to re-charge a battery cell, and at this writing it is unclear about options for battery servicing and replacement.

In terms of real world reliability and acceptance, EVs have yet to exceed modern ICE vehicles. There are some factions that will refuse to give up ICE for EVs. If push came to shove, the majority of ICE owners will simply buy more Honda Civics, Toyota Corollas, and Chevrolet Silverado (yours truly included). ICE vehicles have endured at least ten decades of advancement, and the end result of some advancements are astonishing. Those advancements include power at any displacement, improved fuel efficiency, and technology advancements aimed at ICE vehicles.

However, I feel that alternative energy sources are needed, and should continue to advance in development and marketing. The objective should always be to develop an improvement in the means of reliable transportation for all.

Those are all fair points IMO. The one thing I'd offer (as someone who has an EV) is that even with the piecemeal state of EV charging infrastructure, it can be quite good. EV's have evolved much quicker than charging, but given time, I see no reason why it won't or can't catch up. But it's not ready for mass adoption everywhere in the US, and charging is still too complicated for most people.

[speedyink1]

I like the idea of less things to break (at least on commuter cars where "soul" or "driving character" isn't necessary).

My biggest worry is the battery.

If you do not follow the traditional "Don't discharge below 30%/Don't charge over 80%" at all, how long does the pack last? I'm not talking even talking strictly from a mileage point of view either. The chemicals in the battery degrade over time as well. I can see an EV in 10 years with lowish mileage being ok, I can see a 2 year old EV with high mileage being ok, but what about a 10 y/o car with say 200,000 Miles on the clock?
Battery replacement cost is huge. Not to mention, with a 10's of thousands $ repair, would you want to invest that in an EV with "old" drivetrain technology?

With ICE cars, you can buy a 40 year old car that may only take a few thousand to get running great.

As for sports cars, the gimmick isn't just "pedal go down I go fast", it's also the sound of the motor, the feel of the motor, the connection to it and the transmission and everything.

Not to discredit engineers working on electric vehicles as the work is still impressive, but their inherent simplicity also leaves less room for areas of engagement/excitement.
I can buy an ICE car from 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, and feel like I am having way more fun, even if it's just a car with 130 HP. Maybe it's a tiny high revving V6, with amazing induction sounds, and a crisp free shifting manual transmission. Maybe it's a 180HP V8 with huge sound, lumpy idle, and again, just super fun to master the transmission.
Will there be people looking back at any EV car and go "yeah, this car has so much character regardless of deficiency A or B"? Is there enough to make it feel "special" like many ICE cars in the past still do to this day?

I get I kind of have "old school" thinking and really like all the moving parts that just sing when you have the right car on the right road. If you're totally ok with just having the push you back in the seat feeling, all my points are basically moot.

[0stones0]

Originally Posted by speedyink1

I like the idea of less things to break (at least on commuter cars where "soul" or "driving character" isn't necessary).

My biggest worry is the battery.

If you do not follow the traditional "Don't discharge below 30%/Don't charge over 80%" at all, how long does the pack last? I'm not talking even talking strictly from a mileage point of view either. The chemicals in the battery degrade over time as well. I can see an EV in 10 years with lowish mileage being ok, I can see a 2 year old EV with high mileage being ok, but what about a 10 y/o car with say 200,000 Miles on the clock?
Battery replacement cost is huge. Not to mention, with a 10's of thousands $ repair, would you want to invest that in an EV with "old" drivetrain technology?

With ICE cars, you can buy a 40 year old car that may only take a few thousand to get running great.

As for sports cars, the gimmick isn't just "pedal go down I go fast", it's also the sound of the motor, the feel of the motor, the connection to it and the transmission and everything.

Not to discredit engineers working on electric vehicles as the work is still impressive, but their inherent simplicity also leaves less room for areas of engagement/excitement.
I can buy an ICE car from 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, and feel like I am having way more fun, even if it's just a car with 130 HP. Maybe it's a tiny high revving V6, with amazing induction sounds, and a crisp free shifting manual transmission. Maybe it's a 180HP V8 with huge sound, lumpy idle, and again, just super fun to master the transmission.
Will there be people looking back at any EV car and go "yeah, this car has so much character regardless of deficiency A or B"? Is there enough to make it feel "special" like many ICE cars in the past still do to this day?

I get I kind of have "old school" thinking and really like all the moving parts that just sing when you have the right car on the right road. If you're totally ok with just having the push you back in the seat feeling, all my points are basically moot.

^^^^
This

[silversleeper]

Originally Posted by speedyink1

I like the idea of less things to break (at least on commuter cars where "soul" or "driving character" isn't necessary).
My biggest worry is the battery. If you do not follow the traditional "Don't discharge below 30%/Don't charge over 80%" at all, how long does the pack last?With ICE cars, you can buy a 40 year old car that may only take a few thousand to get running great. I can buy an ICE car from 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, and feel like I am having way more fun, even if it's just a car with 130 HP. Maybe it's a tiny high revving V6, with amazing induction sounds, and a crisp free shifting manual transmission. Maybe it's a 180HP V8 with huge sound, lumpy idle, and again, just super fun to master the transmission.
.

The battery pack will last as long as most of us keep the car with exceptions. It's replaced free for up to 8years and 120,000 miles. How long is your 2023 fully covered for with clutch engine and other parts? Have you priced those and other maintenance lately? Have you taken your car in to have it joyrided or otherwise damaged that wasn't there before? I detest taking my cars in.
I don't pay for brakes and rotors now, oil, air oil filter, plugs coil packs going bad, ecm's going out TCMs or FPCMs going out, fuel pump replacements and fuel filters. There are just so many items that don't need repair. On my older sedan the intake sensor would go out of specs in the oem ecm flash and even new sensors would not fix it and needed an expensive dealer only ecm reflash. My O2 sensors are needing replacement on my work truck...my turbo needs replacing on my GM due to bad engineering and needs the whole exhaust manifold replaced with it. A multi thousand dollar repair on an older cheap car plus it has a bad designed egr in plastic that is causing idle problems too that cost $1k plus to repair. My romanticism across the board with ICE cars has met reality
Have you actually yourself worked on 15 or 20 yr old cars lately? Many parts just degrade even if they themselves aren't broken, they do break as you try to repair other things. That egr in the plastic intake with plastic tubes and plastic electrical connectors. In my civic mechanics that knew were correct in saying don't try to unplug the the coil packs because connectors break on the harness. The rubber parts and seat foams and everything else just breaks down. Cars just become not up to our standards after say 15 or 20 years and worse if older. Repairs are not like the old 70s 350 small block a few bolts and on goes a new starter alternator or mechanical fuel pump. Not by a long shot! A person can enjoy any year classic car but romanticizing about good ol' cars gets a slap in the face as you yourself try to restore them or pay $$$$ for someone to do it for you. My last few resto cars Fbodies from the late 80s needed so much $ I junked them as it wasn't viable.
Yesterday Domino's said my pizzas were running 1/2 hour late. I could go to my climate controlled BEV and sit in comfort watching NETFLIX on the big screen with no fiddling around for a charger or having it stolen like a tablet left in the car. It's linked up to my account so I could pick right up where I left off on a favorite series. But I couldn't play with a stick shifter or AM radio though