[mt3130]

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

Sounds like the new Chevrolet Bolt is the answer for you. 200+ mile range for under 40K. Perhaps less.

I generally agree with your answer, but I have two issues with the Bolt:

1) Its hideous
2) Its still several years out. Its supposed to come out around the same time as Tesla's Model 3

I think that until then I'll just get a new muscle car, drive that while gas is cheap, then relegate that to weekend car when the electrics from Chevy and Tesla arrive.

Originally Posted by wakespeak

Not sure why you would make that statement. The Corvette is a low volume, but higher profit car, as are many others. The Camaro does not have to be a volume seller to be a successful product.

I would say that the 4 cyl would diminish the car and kill it faster than CAFE could. It will be slower and get poorer fuel economy while having none of the techno coolness of the competition. A properly track credentialed car that is downright cool to own has a much greater chance at staying around. Yes it will be more expensive, but people pay $50K for a pickup these days.

The only way to make to Camaro survive as a low volume, high profit car would be to price it similar to a Corvette. That would render the Camaro redundant and useless, though.

Also, car companies don't survive by building "properly track credentialed" cars. They survive off of volume models like the base Camaros, Cruzes, and Malibus. I know that a 2.0T Camaro won't get any better gas mileage in real world driving than the V6 will, but people sure do love buying those things. The 2.0T also allows them to sell at a more attractive price in places that tax by displacement, further increasing volume.

You sound like one of the Porsche owners that complains about the Macan and Cayenne, even though the cash from those volume models allows for development of new 911s and the 918.

The 2.0T four cylinder is going to be the bread and butter for GM. They love performance cars, but they like cars they can sell to the masses even more, which is exactly what the 2.0T car is. That engine virtually ensures a future for the Camaro nameplate.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by wakespeak

Not sure why you would make that statement. The Corvette is a low volume, but higher profit car, as are many others. The Camaro does not have to be a volume seller to be a successful product.

I would say that the 4 cyl would diminish the car and kill it faster than CAFE could. It will be slower and get poorer fuel economy while having none of the techno coolness of the competition. A properly track credentialed car that is downright cool to own has a much greater chance at staying around. Yes it will be more expensive, but people pay $50K for a pickup these days.

Corvette also ranges from $55k clear past $100k. That's how GM can afford to sell lower volumes of it.

Not trying to be mean, but you really have no grasp or concept of how vehicles are positioned in the market. Camaro is not a Corvette. It's supposed to be affordable. It has to reach a mid-20s entry price point in order to make the business case viable. If GM was only going to build $50k performance cars they would just say screw it and kill off Camaro. Corvette is a better car anyways. No back seat you say? Fine, buy an SS. Even has rear doors to help you get into the back row easier.

Positioning Camaro at the same pricing level as Corvette will kill the nameplate. End of story.

You just don't get it.

[wakespeak]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

The Corvette is definitely profitable, no denying that, but that's essentially because it has no direct rivals in the US. The Camaro has always filled that spot below the Corvette and both have enjoyed immense success because of it. To move the Camaro more into a more exclusive Corvette class, would be detrimental to both. The golden rule in GM is mess with the Vette. Several cars have in GM have done it in the past, none of them are around today.

As far as CAFE killing the Camaro...unlikely. The V8s may get axed in the future but performance won't. Take a look at the McLaren P1, Porsche 918, i8, and the new NSX. Hybrid technology isn't just good for MPGs, it's making cars quicker than they have been before. It may take some getting used to, but electric power is hear to stay.

And what techno coolness do you see in the competition?

I was referring to everything I have read (and observed) about 20 somethings, which is presumably the market for the 4cyl Camaro. They don't want performance cars, stick shifts, etc. They want technology and see cars more as an appliance. Now with cheaper electric cars coming, they can brag at the water cooler how they can beat your 4cyl Camaro at a $1 or $2 a day per charge.

Also not saying the Camaro should be priced the same as a Corvette, just not be sold as a entry level vehicle and resources diverted to support that market. Should GM sell 4 and 6 cylinder Corvettes to raise sales volumes?.

Good discussion guys. I am out at this point but will follow your comments.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by wakespeak

I was referring to everything I have read (and observed) about 20 somethings, which is presumably the market for the 4cyl Camaro. They don't want performance cars, stick shifts, etc. They want technology and see cars more as an appliance. Now with cheaper electric cars coming, they can brag at the water cooler how they can beat your 4cyl Camaro at a $1 or $2 a day per charge.

You are indeed correct, but there is definitely a market in that age range that likes sporty cars. Look at all the hot hatchbacks and similar compacts. They sale tons of those. Chevy really doesn't have one anymore since the Cobalt was dropped. Maybe a 2.0T Camaro will attract some of those buyers if priced similarly and good tech options. Look at the BRZ and FRS, they are selling like crazy. There's definitely a segment there they can sale the Camaro too. Right now there's no electric car on the market in that price range with the performance of 2.0T equipped Camaro. Just take a look at the times the ATS posts with a 2 door and the 2.0T. Electric isn't an option yet. Chevy has the Volt and soon the Bolt for those people who view a car as transportation rather than something they actually enjoy, but that's not who buys a Camaro anyway (at least as a primary car).

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by wakespeak

Not sure why you would make that statement. The Corvette is a low volume, but higher profit car, as are many others. The Camaro does not have to be a volume seller to be a successful product.

I would say that the 4 cyl would diminish the car and kill it faster than CAFE could. It will be slower and get poorer fuel economy while having none of the techno coolness of the competition. A properly track credentialed car that is downright cool to own has a much greater chance at staying around. Yes it will be more expensive, but people pay $50K for a pickup these days.

[90503]

This is for the 2014 Model Year...

Total Production (includes Non-saleable, MVB, CTF, and all Retail/Fleet Markets) 97,632

Production for U.S. 89,377
Production for Canada 3,029
Production for Mexico 1,386
Export 3,840

POWERTRAINS
3.6L SIDI DOHC 323 HP V6 LFX 71,481
6.2L SFI V8 w/Active Fuel Mgmt 400 HP (SS) L99 15,006
6.2L SFI V8 w/o Active Fuel Mgmt 426HP (SS) LS3 8,194
6.2L Supercharged V8 580HP (ZL1) LSA 2,436
LS7 Z/28 Engine LS7 515

.....About 70% of sales are V-6...Hard to tell how many preferred a V-6 or were just trying to get a better price overall....Just sayin' a 4cyl would probably add to sales numbers whether by itself or if offered along with a V-6....

[mt3130]

As I look at these numbers, how sure are we that the new Camaro will have the same engine for the auto and the manual?

It didn't really make sense before, but that didn't stop GM.

[90503]

Originally Posted by mt3130

As I look at these numbers, how sure are we that the new Camaro will have the same engine for the auto and the manual?

It didn't really make sense before, but that didn't stop GM.

I've heard the manual trans may be gone eventually....If the new automatics get better mileage the manual's days could be numbered....Or it will turn into the expensive option...lol....auto standard, manual optional.....who knows....

[newb]

The new LT1 is paired with the manual in the Vette. Safe to assume they will not made a special motor this time to differentiate between manual and auto. Pretty sure the L99 came about to prevent the GG tax on the auto.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by newb

Pretty sure the L99 came about to prevent the GG tax on the auto.

Someone correct me if I have this wrong, but don't all new LT1s include AFM? If so, what has changed to allow them to be paired with manual transmissions?

I found this article here (http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...nsmission.html) on GMHighTechPerformance.com. It states:

"Active Fuel Management is a welcome addition for the Camaro, but this begs the question: Why only the automatic? Couldn't engineers incorporate this technology into manual-equipped cars as well? "When switching from 8- to 4-cylinder mode (or vice versa), there are some transitions that you have to deal with," explains Rydzewski. "Typically, a good way to do this is by using a torque converter. The ability to control the slip of the torque converter [via the torque converter clutch] is a big enabler in getting good transitions. The whole thought behind having AFM is, you don't want to have interruptions; you want it as seamless as possible." In other words, GM doesn't want to repeat the mistakes made with the 1981 V-8-6-4 Cadillacs, which often exhibited noticeable hesitations when switching cylinder modes (hence the technology only being offered for one model year). Nevertheless, we were told AFM could be implemented on a manual, and that GM actually is looking into it. But because a manual transmission's clutch is a straight coupling (and one that is hydraulically actuated only by the driver), it is not as adept at damping the slight drivetrain vibrations that occur during AFM activation/deactivation."

[90503]

I believe the Corvette's for the first time this year have AFM with a manual trans....You must be in ECO mode to have AFM engaged....other modes do not have AFM....

Whether or not the Camaro will have these modes available to choose or not choose AFM with a manual trans is yet to be seen....

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by 90503

I believe the Corvette's for the first time this year have AFM with a manual trans....You must be in ECO mode to have AFM engaged....other modes do not have AFM....

Whether or not the Camaro will have these modes available to choose or not choose AFM with a manual trans is yet to be seen....

...so, maybe they just figured if you don't like any jarring effects of AFM on a manual, you can just turn it off at the ECU level?

Maybe that new Tula Dynamic Skip Fire ECU thingy can ease AFM eco mode on more gently?

[90503]

Originally Posted by Capricio

...so, maybe they just figured if you don't like any jarring effects of AFM on a manual, you can just turn it off at the ECU level?

Maybe that new Tula Dynamic Skip Fire ECU thingy can ease AFM eco mode on more gently?

With the LT-1 Manual trans Corvette, the available ECO-Mode (one of several driving modes to choose from) is the only mode that activates AFM.

We don't know if the LT-1 in the manual Camaros will even have AFM, or driving modes similar to Corvette....

How well the AFM works in the Vette's, or what it feels like, I couldn't tell you....

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by 90503

With the LT-1 Manual trans Corvette, the available ECO-Mode (one of several driving modes to choose from) is the only mode that activates AFM.

We don't know if the LT-1 in the manual Camaros will even have AFM, or driving modes similar to Corvette....

How well the AFM works in the Vette's, or what it feels like, I couldn't tell you....

Yep we can only hope the Camaro will get a similar setup as the Vette in terms of drive modes. With the Mustang having selectable modes, I saw there's a good chance we will see it.