[docwra]

Originally Posted by Capricio

When have major media outlets ever misled the public with a false narrative to drive an agenda? ...I'm sorry I even dared to question anything.

I love this logic. The media output you agree with is accurate, but the bit you dont agree with is false?
Like I said, I dont know what youre reading but the majority of what Ive seen is anti-EV, certainly when its personal opinion.

And how much have rates increased in europe as they transition to expensive green sources of energy?

Rates have gone up in the last 18 months but mainly because theres an actual war happening in Europe at the moment.
Renewables are actually cheaper than fossil fuels: https://cleantechnica.com/2023/04/15...pions-on-cost/ and as I keep banging on about you can actually generate your own, free energy.

Rail against the purchase cost, complain about the charging network, even moan about the lack of engine noise but you cant attack them for using clean*, cheap energy.

*potentially clean anyway

[docwra]

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

This is an interesting thread. One group of people who want to be left alone to drive what they want and another group that wants to dictate the driving choices that other people have.

I dont think anyone is trying to dictate anything, as Ive said before on a personal level Im just trying to counter misinformation. I do have a 2014 Z28 as well if that makes you feel better?

And its not that clearcut either. If I lived in your neighborhood and wanted to burn tyres in my yard all day would that be OK with you?
What about if I ran my air raid siren for a few hours every morning?

The second "group of people" youre talking about want cleaner air and less environmental impact from the stuff we do, the same way you probably dont want to breathe burning tyres or be deafened by an air siren, unfortunately you cant always allow individual choice in a community.

Out of interest was there the same resistance and protests when you guys started smog testing?
Do you agree now it was a good thing, a step in the right direction?

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by docwra

I dont think anyone is trying to dictate anything, as Ive said before on a personal level Im just trying to counter misinformation. I do have a 2014 Z28 as well if that makes you feel better?

And its not that clearcut either. If I lived in your neighborhood and wanted to burn tyres in my yard all day would that be OK with you?
What about if I ran my air raid siren for a few hours every morning?

The second "group of people" youre talking about want cleaner air and less environmental impact from the stuff we do, the same way you probably dont want to breathe burning tyres or be deafened by an air siren, unfortunately you cant always allow individual choice in a community.

Out of interest was there the same resistance and protests when you guys started smog testing?
Do you agree now it was a good thing, a step in the right direction?

And let's use your rather poor analogy to illustrate why all of this so-called environmental concern (not you specifically; the environmental movement in general) is at best insincere or at worst fake.

On a global scale, the earth being the neighborhood, we have China, Russia, and India all burning tyres to their hearts content and nobody says anything about it. Well, they do say something... something like "Would you please someday maybe stop burning tyres? No need to stop now if you don't want to, of course, but maybe someday?"

To which China, Russia, and India reply, "Sure, whatever", and load even more onto the fire.

If the people in charge really thought that burning fossil fuels was putting the planet in peril and would lead to the doom of us all they wouldn't sit idly by and let it happen. So, since China, Russia, and India are free to do whatever they choose, one can only assume that it's not really about the environment.

[docwra]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

To which China, Russia, and India reply, "Sure, whatever", and load even more onto the fire.

The point is someone has stop burning tyres first, China arent going to cut down if they can see you burning just as many tyres as they do, similarly the average Indian cant afford to switch to solar or heat pumps until the costs come down a lot further.

The timing of this is pretty sweet for my argument:
https://www.reuters.com/business/env...me-2023-12-12/

If the people in charge really thought that burning fossil fuels was putting the planet in peril and would lead to the doom of us all they wouldn't sit idly by and let it happen.

Now who is being naive? All the big parties really care about is winning the next election, hopefully as more people lobby for environmental change they will start actually taking notice. Watch the movie "Dont Look Up" for a far better explanation, its actually pretty entertaining too.

And even if the greens are wrong, is that really a bad thing? Cleaner air, cleaner lakes and rivers, less reliance on massive oil and mining cartels?
The ability to make your own power cant be bad, surely?

Fair play, I totally see your points and know a lot of people who agree with you ....... but can you answer me the smog test question our friend avoided?

[KMPrenger]

I have to say...Martin has always had my respect on this forum, and the fact that he's been able to keep going and going and going on this particular topic in an attempt to raise awareness and spread reliable information all while keeping a calm head is admirable.

In the end, what it comes down to at this point in time is that EVs just don't work for everyone, and for certain segments of vehicle, they don't make much sense yet. Whether its cost (most EVs ARE way more expensive than their ICE counterparts...does GM know you can buy a similarly equipped ICE Equinox RS for over 10 grand less than the EV version?) or range anxiety, or home access to daily place to charge, or the way in which you use your vehicles (towing?), to concern over charging station availability/reliability, concern for the ways in which EVs are made,...and so on.

They just aren't there yet. The infrastructure just isn't there yet. All of the above reasons combined are why EV adoption is not taking off like the automakers and lawmakers were thinking. Sure, they are selling (Thanks to Tesla) There's a long way to go.

Where full EV does make sense right now, are for urban commuter vehicles, and the owners have a place to charge at home and they also have an ICE/hybrid vehicle, or they only take one or two long trips each year, and they are OK with that trip taking several more hours to get where they are going and they can afford a premium vehicle for that. That's it. For virtually everything else, hybrid or ICE is the more sensible choice. There is absolutely no way I would buy an EV and not have some sort of gas powered vehicle right now for long trips. I don't know about you guys, but I'm not really into adding extra anxiety, complexity, and time into my trips. I guess one could just rent an ICE and keep the EV at home.

When battery charging becomes faster and more convenient, then we'll talk about whether or not EVs make sense for other types of transportation. We are at least a decade or two away from that.

For all you folks here arguing...it's just not worth it. We all want a cleaner planet. We also want sensible choices. Let's just agree on that. Let the technology evolve, and hopefully in the meantime we will continue to have choices of what we want to drive. gm (in my humble opinion) made a mistake by not giving the consumer more choice. Just imagine if they were able to accelerate their EV plans and had dropped more ICE vehicles by now...the only thing they'd be selling is trucks and SUVs (in America anyways. Word is they may introduce some hybrids they are developing for other markets into the American market...we shall see)

[snizzle]

KMPrenger, that is far too sensible for the internet. Reported.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by snizzle

KMPrenger, that is far too sensible for the internet. Reported.

Beat me to it.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by docwra

The point is someone has stop burning tyres first, China arent going to cut down if they can see you burning just as many tyres as they do, similarly the average Indian cant afford to switch to solar or heat pumps until the costs come down a lot further.

The timing of this is pretty sweet for my argument:
https://www.reuters.com/business/env...me-2023-12-12/

That agreement is a non-binding bunch of nonsense. If you read the article carefully it is a developing country's wet dream in that it is basically a vehicle for wealth redistribution.

Now who is being naive? All the big parties really care about is winning the next election, hopefully as more people lobby for environmental change they will start actually taking notice. Watch the movie "Dont Look Up" for a far better explanation, its actually pretty entertaining too.

So we agree that this isn't really about the environment.

And even if the greens are wrong, is that really a bad thing? Cleaner air, cleaner lakes and rivers, less reliance on massive oil and mining cartels?
The ability to make your own power cant be bad, surely?

Fair play, I totally see your points and know a lot of people who agree with you ....... but can you answer me the smog test question our friend avoided?

I have never lived anywhere that did smog testing so I'm unaware of how that was received. As for the overall picture, no doubt it was and is a very good thing. Look at pictures of Los Angeles in the 70's, its comical how dirty the air was... almost as bad as Beijing today .

But that result was not achieved by putting a critical major industry (oil and gas) out of business or coercing people to buy something they did not want.

And for the record - I like EV's. I even own one (but it is a PHEV because that makes more sense) and it's a fun car. A station wagon that's a legit 12.5 sec car, what's not to like

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

That agreement is a non-binding bunch of nonsense. If you read the article carefully it is a developing country's wet dream in that it is basically a vehicle for wealth redistribution.





So we agree that this isn't really about the environment.



I have never lived anywhere that did smog testing so I'm unaware of how that was received. As for the overall picture, no doubt it was and is a very good thing. Look at pictures of Los Angeles in the 70's, its comical how dirty the air was... almost as bad as Beijing today .

But that result was not achieved by putting a critical major industry (oil and gas) out of business or coercing people to buy something they did not want.

And for the record - I like EV's. I even own one (but it is a PHEV because that makes more sense) and it's a fun car. A station wagon that's a legit 12.5 sec car, what's not to like

Owners of pre-1977 Cadillacs and Lincolns would like a word with you. Those cars shrank by about a foot and a half almost overnight. I still can hear my grandfather’s rant in the back of my brain.

Porsche Panamera e-Hybrid or Audi Etron?

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Owners of pre-1977 Cadillacs and Lincolns would like a word with you. Those cars shrank by about a foot and a half almost overnight. I still can hear my grandfather’s rant in the back of my brain.

Porsche Panamera e-Hybrid or Audi Etron?

Volvo V60 Polestar.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

Volvo V60 Polestar.

Nice! How’d I forget about that one.

[Martinjlm]

This guy does a very well balanced and well documented review of what trips in an EV look like with the current state of public charging. I’ll just post it here with no commentary, except to say if it wasn’t clear why Ford, GM, practically everybody else is signing onto the Tesla charging standard, it should be now.

https://youtu.be/92w5doU68D8

[el ess A]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I’ll just post it here with no commentary, except to say if it wasn’t clear why Ford, GM, practically everybody else is signing onto the Tesla charging standard, it should be now.

You would think they would have learned that from the ICE fueling stations where the nozzles are a certain size for diesel and a certain size for unleaded, etc., because the fuel filler necks are sized the same across the board. Even your microwave uses the same type plug recepticle as your refrigerator and coffee maker.

Of course Elon kinda got there first with the major public charging stations, and I never could understand why everyone wanted to use their "own" style of plug-ins, instead of adopting a "standard" for public charging, whatever that may have been. I mean, I can understand the concept that you can control your equipment by making it fit your own cars for matched components, but c'mon...

I mean, even iPhone finally figured out that USB-C ports were really the best way to go to standardize across their equipment lines instead of using different ports for different Apple products. Derp!

[Mr_Draco]

Originally Posted by el ess A

I mean, even iPhone finally figured out that USB-C ports were really the best way to go to standardize across their equipment lines instead of using different ports for different Apple products. Derp!

This was because the EU made it law that to be sold in Europe, all smartphones and electronic devices had to use USB-C. Apple didn't make the change because they wanted to or thought it was best.