[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Totally different situations. Gen 4 ended because it could no longer meet fuel economy, emissions, and safety regulations on the F-Body platform. There was not another available RWD platform to build a Camaro on until the decision was made to build a Zeta platform (Australian product) module in North America. There is an available compliant platform for a next gen Camaro (Alpha / Alpha 2). GM just chooses not to use it because it does not fit with the portfolio plan. There are a myriad of reasons why that is the case. It is very likely that Camaro nameplate will come back, and even more likely that when it does it will be sporting a plug port, not a gas cap.

Nah, they killed the 4th Gen because they were eating too heavily into the sales of their flagship car, the C5 at the time. The car costed on avg between $10 - $15k less, made the same HP, ran the same quarter mile times, and even had more space. They didn't invest in another car like the 4th Gen because at the time, the car was 'too' perfect for what it was intended for.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

Nah, they killed the 4th Gen because they were eating too heavily into the sales of their flagship car, the C5 at the time. The car costed on avg between $10 - $15k less, made the same HP, ran the same quarter mile times, and even had more space. They didn't invest in another car like the 4th Gen because at the time, the car was 'too' perfect for what it was intended for.

It’s interesting that you think Camaro was cancelled for selling too well while most other people think it wasn’t selling well enough. From the outside looking in it’s probably an easy conclusion to think it had anything to do with sales. In 2002 Camaro only sold about 42,000 cars. 2002 was also the BEST sales year for C5 Corvette, so I sincerely doubt Camaro cannabalizing Corvette was a concern in 2002. Being on the inside looking out provided me a completely different view. I was in Product Portfolio Planning watching the mad scramble to find a RWD architecture on which to build the next gen Camaro. Sigma was a fleeting consideration but at that time it was a Cadillac only architecture and was already set to be over-subscribed due to a number of future Cadillac models (most never saw light of day) so that wasn’t a real option. And creating a new architecture was a non-starter. So Camaro stayed dark until Zeta.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by 79 TransAm that never was

Because those running GM are lazy and would rather cancel divisions and models then to work hard to promote, change, and innovate products.
GM doesn't want to keep the Camaro alive because the Camaro steals valuable parts away from their cash cows.

I.E. Camaro sales didn't die because consumers killed it, the Camaro died because GM purposely killed it...

Errrrrrr what? No division has been cancelled since the bankruptcy 15 years ago. And in retrospect only Pontiac has a remote rationale for maybe being saved.

Other than a BUNCH of crappy selling cars including the Camaro what has been cancelled?

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Exactly. They don't want the Camaro anymore, they simply gave up in 2018 as they wholeheartedly adopted the trend du jour and, to be brutally honest, in a lesser way also seeing how it sold worse than the 5th gen, and are now milking the last ounces of $$$ juice out of the car before discontinuing it.

This doesn't have to be the case forever, of course, but that would require a completely different corporate mindset and management, which isn't on the horizon.

LOL no it simply needs a management team that didn’t design a Camaro that ONLY satisfied existing Camaro buyers. IF they had asked non Camaro buyers “what would it take for YOU to buy a Camaro we would have had a wildly different car. If anything you could attribute GM only asking Camaro fans what it would take to buy a Camaro as……..arrogance


Fun story though, when my wife worked on Corvette they would ask Porsche owners what it would take for them to buy a Corvette and the answer always “nothing, id never ever buy a Chevrolet let alone a Corvette”. But at least they asked.

[detamble13]

Originally Posted by Number 3

crappy selling cars including the Camaro

How many units sold per year do you figure would have spurred the investment in a 7th gen?

I'm of the mind that gm's shift to an all electric portfolio is what killed the Camaro. The name may come back but most likely in a 4 door suv form which would be sad.

Also you keep saying it was the death knell of Camaro when they reached out to existing customers to see what they wanted. Consulting with your existing customer base doesn't seem like a bad idea to me and it did in fact result in a great car. I'm not sure more visibility and trunk space (while nice) would have yielded sales numbers that ensured Camaro's uninterrupted production.

Does the Camaro being discontinued confirm your decision not to buy one?

[genxer]

They did need to ask non-Camaro buyers, and not just Mustang people; Chevy leaning people that didn't buy.

Regulation avg + Higher truck prices mean they'd rather build those and the Corvette, and cancel the Camaro.

Does not the current 10 speed auto have hybrid capability (Ford)? That would leave an existing architecture skipping awd and stealing trunk room for another battery. I can't think plug-in range matters whatsoever for a performance car.

Saw this EV clay puke: https://burlappcar.com/2023/10/future-camaro-ev.html

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by detamble13

How many units sold per year do you figure would have spurred the investment in a 7th gen?

I'm of the mind that gm's shift to an all electric portfolio is what killed the Camaro. The name may come back but most likely in a 4 door suv form which would be sad.

Also you keep saying it was the death knell of Camaro when they reached out to existing customers to see what they wanted. Consulting with your existing customer base doesn't seem like a bad idea to me and it did in fact result in a great car. I'm not sure more visibility and trunk space (while nice) would have yielded sales numbers that ensured Camaro's uninterrupted production.

Does the Camaro being discontinued confirm your decision not to buy one?

Without seeing the actual plan, 85,000 was what I presume the planning volume was.

Less than that requires a completely different investment strategy and essentially you would then be creating another Corvette.

Asking your existing customers would be great strategy if you were one leading the market, the market was huge and growing and your number one status grew with the growing market.

In this case the market has been shrinking for 20 plus years. Remember when GM needed 2 plants to build 400,000 sporty coupes? I do. He market is continuing to get smaller and if you aren’t number 1 you are getting hammered even more in a shrinking market. So if you MUST grow your market share in a shrinking market you also MUST have a product with broader appeal.

The Mustang is not a performance car like the Camaro is. But what he Mustang has is better visibility, a more usable back seat (from experience) and a trunk that you can get golf clubs in. Being the better performance car didn’t result in being the number one seller, although I’d bet just like in 2002 the V8 Camaro was equal to the V8 Mustang sales. Problem is the business case isn’t based on that. For example the Camaro has to pay its share of GM’s fixed costs. The fewer you sell, V8 or otherwise, that cost goes up per car. And that is thousands of $ per car. Now double that cost of selling 40,000 vs 80,000. I recall a program years ago where the starting base cost for the program without a single part or tool being added to the business case of $3,000. This is the cost difference GM, Ford and the American arm of Stellantis have to pay compared to the transplants hat have no pensions, no retire healthcare and your states bend over backwards to gibpve them 100s of millions of dollars to build a plant that competes.

A new ICE Camaro has zero business case at the ever decreasing volume of the sporty coupe segment. Now if you had a car sooooo good you could drive Mustang volumes to 0……..

The car and truck business is hard and just getting harder. You know how no one cares that their phone is made in China? In maybe as little as 5 years this will be the auto market. Removing ICE powertrain development costs let a lot of people in the business. And Apple? Yes we lost an HVAC engineer to Apple several years ago and we are pretty sure they didn’t want him to cool iPhones.

[detamble13]

Good info and the hard truth in terms of the majority of people not caring much about where the product is manufactured. There is a decent amount that do though and it will be interesting to see how this strike turns out.

It's just disappointing that GM had been able to provide us a two door sporty car that's attainable but its going away without a replacement (ev or gas). Most talk about the next Camaro revolves around it being an suv and that is just using the name to sell a vehicle. Unfortunately less people opt for two door cars and so the business case becomes harder but Toyota still cares about cars and even offers a couple two doors. Honda still builds cars and of course there is the Mustang from Ford. There is a market for cars below the level of Corvette and I'd like Chevy to offer something as they traditionally have.

I haven't upgraded to a sixth gen mostly because it would be a stupid financial decision. If I was looking though I wonder if I'd look at Mustang because the Camaro is smaller than I'm used to. Living with the inconveniences of the car is quickly overcome when driving it though and I wish more people valued that. Sure it could have more visibility and storage space but it doesn't need four doors and a raised driving position. Maybe asking non "Camaro" people would have just got us to Camaro suv sooner.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by detamble13

Good info and the hard truth in terms of the majority of people not caring much about where the product is manufactured. There is a decent amount that do though and it will be interesting to see how this strike turns out.

It's just disappointing that GM had been able to provide us a two door sporty car that's attainable but its going away without a replacement (ev or gas). Most talk about the next Camaro revolves around it being an suv and that is just using the name to sell a vehicle. Unfortunately less people opt for two door cars and so the business case becomes harder but Toyota still cares about cars and even offers a couple two doors. Honda still builds cars and of course there is the Mustang from Ford. There is a market for cars below the level of Corvette and I'd like Chevy to offer something as they traditionally have.

I haven't upgraded to a sixth gen mostly because it would be a stupid financial decision. If I was looking though I wonder if I'd look at Mustang because the Camaro is smaller than I'm used to. Living with the inconveniences of the car is quickly overcome when driving it though and I wish more people valued that. Sure it could have more visibility and storage space but it doesn't need four doors and a raised driving position. Maybe asking non "Camaro" people would have just got us to Camaro suv sooner.

I think a replacement is coming. Maybe in name only but my hope is, and I’ve been consistent here, is an EV that actually make 5e die hard on this site go, “hmmmmmm, maybe”.

As you point out there is a market below Corvette, but the issue is it’s probably not profitable for GM to be in hat market. Just like it wasn’t profitable to keep Impala and LaCrosse and Cruise and Verano or Spark and Sonic. Now you could make the argument that it was simply those cars weren’t that great and if Gam had just done a better job those would still be on sale. And as pointed out Honda still has Accord and Civic, Toyota still has Camry and Corolla and Hyundai and Kia both have whatever I can’t remember their cars names in those segments. But for the most part those cars have volume around he world where GM, other than China had little to help defer the costs.

In the end building the best car isn’t enough because the best car with the best performance doesn’t help win the sales crown. Mustang has that without advertising and without numbers to back it up, my bet is GM is on par or beating Mustang in the performance version but far behind in the non V8 sales and I would be shocked if % women buyers want 2x he Camaro for Mustang if not higher.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by detamble13

Good info and the hard truth in terms of the majority of people not caring much about where the product is manufactured. There is a decent amount that do though and it will be interesting to see how this strike turns out.

It's just disappointing that GM had been able to provide us a two door sporty car that's attainable but its going away without a replacement (ev or gas). Most talk about the next Camaro revolves around it being an suv and that is just using the name to sell a vehicle. Unfortunately less people opt for two door cars and so the business case becomes harder but Toyota still cares about cars and even offers a couple two doors. Honda still builds cars and of course there is the Mustang from Ford. There is a market for cars below the level of Corvette and I'd like Chevy to offer something as they traditionally have.

I haven't upgraded to a sixth gen mostly because it would be a stupid financial decision. If I was looking though I wonder if I'd look at Mustang because the Camaro is smaller than I'm used to. Living with the inconveniences of the car is quickly overcome when driving it though and I wish more people valued that. Sure it could have more visibility and storage space but it doesn't need four doors and a raised driving position. Maybe asking non "Camaro" people would have just got us to Camaro suv sooner.

Talk outside of the auto industry might be speculating towards a Camaro SUV simply due to the fact that Ford did that. But notice that Ford did not replace the Mustang sports coupe with an SUV, they added the SUV.

Talk inside of the auto industry is that GM will replace the Camaro sports coupe with a low roof EV. Low roof = car. The biggest point of debate is how many doors will it have. In other words, are we talking M3 fighter or M4 fighter.

It doesn’t make sense for GM to make a Camaro utility. There will already be a Blazer EV SS on one end and a Corvette EV SUV on the top end. Doesn’t leave a lot of room for a Camaro EV Utility.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I think a replacement is coming. Maybe in name only but my hope is, and I’ve been consistent here, is an EV that actually make 5e die hard on this site go, “hmmmmmm, maybe”.

As you point out there is a market below Corvette, but the issue is it’s probably not profitable for GM to be in hat market. Just like it wasn’t profitable to keep Impala and LaCrosse and Cruise and Verano or Spark and Sonic. Now you could make the argument that it was simply those cars weren’t that great and if Gam had just done a better job those would still be on sale. And as pointed out Honda still has Accord and Civic, Toyota still has Camry and Corolla and Hyundai and Kia both have whatever I can’t remember their cars names in those segments. But for the most part those cars have volume around he world where GM, other than China had little to help defer the costs.

In the end building the best car isn’t enough because the best car with the best performance doesn’t help win the sales crown. Mustang has that without advertising and without numbers to back it up, my bet is GM is on par or beating Mustang in the performance version but far behind in the non V8 sales and I would be shocked if % women buyers want 2x he Camaro for Mustang if not higher.

Just adding to the points in bold from a product portfolio pov…

Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai-Kia have something in common that allows them to maintain the sedan portfolios they have… No significant presence in the truck market. Sure, Toyota has Tacoma leading the mid-size truck segment, but that is a small fraction of the full-size truck segment that GM, Ford, and Stellantis own in the US. On a per unit basis, trucks are far more profitable than cars in the US. That is reversed in other parts of the world where Honda / Toyota / Hyundai-Kia operate more aggressively than Ford or GM. All of these companies operate with finite resources and funds. GM & Ford, and to a lesser extent Stellantis, wisely choose to dedicate those resources to support
A) truck programs
B) rapidly growing CUV markets and products
C) transitioning to EV
D) everything else

In addition, Ford and GM have more fundamental problems meeting Car CAFE regulations than Honda / Toyota / Hyundai-Kia which has driven both companies and Stellantis (US) to all but abandon their car portfolios. Regulation changes expected for 2027 will accelerate the demise of non-electric cars from GM / Ford / Stellantis. Rather than invest in technologies required to get cars to meet the stricter regulations, they will (have been actually) accelerating their shift to EVs that are not subject to the regulations changes because they have no tailpipe emissions. The others are already implementing the required technologies at scale volume in other parts of the world where regulations similar to the regulations coming to US in 2027 are already in force.

[MyNameIs]

Camaro owners don't want it.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Talk inside of the auto industry is that GM will replace the Camaro sports coupe with a low roof EV. Low roof = car. The biggest point of debate is how many doors will it have. In other words, are we talking M3 fighter or M4 fighter.

Wouldn't that make more sense if it was a Cadillac?

[hawk02]

This table of USA Camaro Sales for the 5th and 6th gen Camaros will tell you all you need to know why GM is killing the model.

And it’s not just because of a lack of marketing and advertising. The same complaint was expressed for the 5th-generation Camaro.

We can argue ad nauseam as to the reasons why the 6th gen Camaro didn’t register with buyers. However, no one can argue that sales have been pretty dismal especially given GM’s push to EVs.