[Autonaut]

Originally Posted by RobC

It is absolutely pathetic that GM does not offer the OPTION of a performance AWD that improves launch and performance on all performance cars, especially Camaro and Cadillac "v" cars.
Traction is, and has always been, the main issue, especially in four season areas. My 1993 LT1 Camaro was traction limited, especially in the cold and wet.

Wrong.

It does not improve performance on all performance cars.

Do you see any awd cars racing lemans, f1 or nascar for that sake? No you dont. There's a reaaon for it. You even quoted part of it in your post.

[RobC]

Originally Posted by Autonaut

Wrong.

It does not improve performance on all performance cars.

Do you see any awd cars racing lemans, f1 or nascar for that sake? No you dont. There's a reaaon for it. You even quoted part of it in your post.

I am SO tired of hearing clueless opinions on AWD, especially from those who would deny OTHERS the OPTION they want to PAY for. It's especially annoying when it's children who are crying against AWD that live in warm climates and own weak cars that aren't making 500 to the wheels, let along 600+++.

First of all, we are talking about STREET cars that have to deal with PUBLIC STREETS that have variable traction, temperature, and conditions and NOT race cars that only see warm conditions on a perfectly maintained surface.
So, you make a fool of yourself when you bring up racing series and make the ridiculous statement that AWD is not an asset on the STREET.

Anyone who is so clueless that they don't see the advantage of AWD have never driven a sports car through a Northeast winter, have never owned a 600+++rwhp car, and are so self absorbed that they can't see the obvious needs of those who do live in the Northeast and/or have 600+++ rwhp cars.

The Porsche 911 is the best example for the RWD vs. AWD conversation because it's the only pure sports car that offers both RWD and AWD that I am aware of. The head of 911 has stated the 911 Turbo equals or beats the 911 GT3's Nurburgring times ON THE SAME TIRES. But, the AWD Turbo can be driven year round, on any public road, in any condition. Try driving your 500+ rwhp RWD car to a Vermont ski resort where AWD Porsches regularly travel. I rest my case.

Any to those who will try to use the pathetic argument that I should learn how to drive, buy snow tires, or drive a piece of crap SUV all winter.
NO.
I've done all of the above since 1997 and I don't want to be forced to choose between my RWD GM and a SUV when there are 911 Turbo, Nissan GTR, and even Audi S/RS options available.

GM needs to pull their head out of their ass and offer a LT1/LT8 with performance AWD. I'd prefer it to be a SS Sedan or ATS-V, but I'd be happy it be a Camaro SS, CTS-V, Corvette, or even V-sport Caddy.
I really hate the GM slushboxes and think it's pathetic that GM does not offer the DCT it's performance cars deserve. But, even I would gladly buy a V8 auto for the first time in my life if GM offered it with performance focused AWD.

I think a ATS or Camaro SS with performance AWD and a LT1/LT4 would make the ultimate daily driver.
GM needs to make this happen before I end up breaking down and buying a 911 Turbo, GTR, Audi, or even the new Tesla Model S P85D that accelerates to 60mph in 3's and runs the 1/4 in 11's.

[Iroc_Z28]

Originally Posted by RobC

I really hate the GM slushboxes and think it's pathetic that GM does not offer the DCT it's performance cars deserve.

The 8L90 8 speed automatic in the c7 shifts faster than the Porsche PDK dual clutch, all while weighing less and having a smaller physical size than a dual clutch transmission. the 8L90 is far from being a "slushbox"

[RobC]

Originally Posted by Iroc_Z28

The 8L90 8 speed automatic in the c7 shifts faster than the Porsche PDK dual clutch, all while weighing less and having a smaller physical size than a dual clutch transmission. the 8L90 is far from being a "slushbox"

Oh, ya?
Have YOU tested it personally???


Well, I HAVE.
And, it does NOT shift anywhere NEAR as fast as PDK and it indeed feels like a traditional slushbox.
In fact, the shift lag is pathetic when manually shifting. I believed GM's lies regarding the A8 competing with PDK and I was prepared to replace my C6 with a A8 equipped C7 after driving manual GM cars since 1993. The A8's poor performance and GMs blatant lies are very disturbing to someone like me who has been loyally buying GM cars and trucks since 1993.

If you don't believe me, go test the A8 back to back with a PDK and get back to me. If you disagree, then you're an inexperienced fan boy and I can't help you.

I will always love the GM V8 and it deserves a proper DCT. Until then, the 7spd stick is the only choice for someone is able and willing to shift for themselves.

[Number 3]

As for AWD not being better in all cases, I think in racing it is simply illegal. I believe Audi was trying to race the Quattro drive train and it was outlawed.

As for the new 8 speed, yes GM insists it shifts faster than the Porsche PDK. So there is a bit of marketing/engineering in that. 1st, is the PDK the best, fastest shifting transmission available? 2nd, although IROC Z28 does not want it called a slushbox, It is still not directly driven as a DCT. It still has a torque converter. So yes, the gears may shift faster, but I'm holding judgment on whether it is actually as good overall than a DCT. We've had several reviews of the 2015 Corvette and Corvette Z06 with that transmission and I don't recall any of the reviews suggesting it is better than a DCT only that it is a good transmission.

I might be spoiled, but my Audi S4 weighing nearly 4,000 pounds was a 4.9 second car to 60 with only 330 HP (330 torque, a monster). Primarily from the Full Time AWD. And the 7 speed DCT transmission was the most awesome I've ever driven. I just haven't driven the 8L90 yet.

[Autonaut]

Originally Posted by RobC

I am SO tired of hearing clueless opinions on AWD, especially from those who would deny OTHERS the OPTION they want to PAY for. It's especially annoying when it's children who are crying against AWD that live in warm climates and own weak cars that aren't making 500 to the wheels, let along 600+++.

First of all, we are talking about STREET cars that have to deal with PUBLIC STREETS that have variable traction, temperature, and conditions and NOT race cars that only see warm conditions on a perfectly maintained surface.
So, you make a fool of yourself when you bring up racing series and make the ridiculous statement that AWD is not an asset on the STREET.

Anyone who is so clueless that they don't see the advantage of AWD have never driven a sports car through a Northeast winter, have never owned a 600+++rwhp car, and are so self absorbed that they can't see the obvious needs of those who do live in the Northeast and/or have 600+++ rwhp cars.

The Porsche 911 is the best example for the RWD vs. AWD conversation because it's the only pure sports car that offers both RWD and AWD that I am aware of. The head of 911 has stated the 911 Turbo equals or beats the 911 GT3's Nurburgring times ON THE SAME TIRES. But, the AWD Turbo can be driven year round, on any public road, in any condition. Try driving your 500+ rwhp RWD car to a Vermont ski resort where AWD Porsches regularly travel. I rest my case.

Any to those who will try to use the pathetic argument that I should learn how to drive, buy snow tires, or drive a piece of crap SUV all winter.
NO.
I've done all of the above since 1997 and I don't want to be forced to choose between my RWD GM and a SUV when there are 911 Turbo, Nissan GTR, and even Audi S/RS options available.

GM needs to pull their head out of their ass and offer a LT1/LT8 with performance AWD. I'd prefer it to be a SS Sedan or ATS-V, but I'd be happy it be a Camaro SS, CTS-V, Corvette, or even V-sport Caddy.
I really hate the GM slushboxes and think it's pathetic that GM does not offer the DCT it's performance cars deserve. But, even I would gladly buy a V8 auto for the first time in my life if GM offered it with performance focused AWD.

I think a ATS or Camaro SS with performance AWD and a LT1/LT4 would make the ultimate daily driver.
GM needs to make this happen before I end up breaking down and buying a 911 Turbo, GTR, Audi, or even the new Tesla Model S P85D that accelerates to 60mph in 3's and runs the 1/4 in 11's.

You are retarded sir..
Earlier you stated IRS superior SRA in all vehicles.. The retardedness of such a statement is absurd. And you knew it. You were just to proud to admit it.

Right now, you claim awd is superior in all performance vehicles north of 5-600rwhp.
Retard, that is not what you stated earlier.
You stated awd is superior to rwd in ANY performance vehicle. Your extreme level of stupidity might not have foreseen we cant read your mind, but now you know.

Again, you're too proud to be wrong.

The saddest part is that even with 500-600rwhp awd is still not superior in all performance vehicles.

How fast(slow) do you think the new z06 would be around a track carrying an additional 200-300lbs of weight? Are you stupid enough to believe that car would be faster?
Please keep your snow covered bumpy winter roads to yourself when maneuvering a 500rwhp car. It's your decision to take those roads in a performance car which would be foolish considering the free height below the vehicle.
I'll just take my 4x4 truck, as it is naturally better suited at the job.
Your weird way of arguing in black/white is at best idiotic.

Let me explain this really really simple to you, again, what it is all about when building a performance vehicle: BALANCE.

A balance of power, power delivery, weight, handling, gearing, aerodynamics, size, braking ability and many more.
Just slapping on awd on any performance car because you once ls swapped a fox body and then became an expert and now says so, simply isnt a good idea or a true statement.

Get your shit together and realize most anything have and upside as well as a downside.
You should have learned this already when you undoubtedly sat down and reaserched pro's and con's of both cam in block and overhead cam engines.

[Posaune]

No, it will add weight and cost to the whole line. Pony cars don't need AWD.

[RobC]

Originally Posted by Posaune

No, it will add weight and cost to the whole line. Pony cars don't need AWD.

You're wrong. It's 2015, not 1965.
The pony car is dead. Camaros now weight 4,000 lbs.
Not to mention, the competition offers both DCT and AWD for the same price as a Camaro.


The next Camaro will make 460hp and be traction limited. 4 season conditions will make traction ever worse.
The additional 130lbs +/- that AWD adds is more than worth it, especially on the street.
The cost argument is laughable considering the other cars that are offering AWD at this price point.

Case in point: My G37x SEDAN runs mid 13's in the 1/4, weighs 3,800lbs, and I only paid $32k for it brand new.
For the money, I think the G37x is the ultimate daily driver for all season driving.
If GM offered a Camaro SS with PERFORMANCE AWD, I think it would replace my G37x for the ultimate daily driver for the money.

Originally Posted by Autonaut

You are retarded sir..
Earlier you stated IRS superior SRA in all vehicles.. The retardedness of such a statement is absurd. And you knew it. You were just to proud to admit it.

Right now, you claim awd is superior in all performance vehicles north of 5-600rwhp.
Retard, that is not what you stated earlier.
You stated awd is superior to rwd in ANY performance vehicle. Your extreme level of stupidity might not have foreseen we cant read your mind, but now you know.

Again, you're too proud to be wrong.

The saddest part is that even with 500-600rwhp awd is still not superior in all performance vehicles.

How fast(slow) do you think the new z06 would be around a track carrying an additional 200-300lbs of weight? Are you stupid enough to believe that car would be faster?
Please keep your snow covered bumpy winter roads to yourself when maneuvering a 500rwhp car. It's your decision to take those roads in a performance car which would be foolish considering the free height below the vehicle.
I'll just take my 4x4 truck, as it is naturally better suited at the job.
Your weird way of arguing in black/white is at best idiotic.

Let me explain this really really simple to you, again, what it is all about when building a performance vehicle: BALANCE.

A balance of power, power delivery, weight, handling, gearing, aerodynamics, size, braking ability and many more.
Just slapping on awd on any performance car because you once ls swapped a fox body and then became an expert and now says so, simply isnt a good idea or a true statement.

Get your shit together and realize most anything have and upside as well as a downside.
You should have learned this already when you undoubtedly sat down and reaserched pro's and con's of both cam in block and overhead cam engines.

Tough talk from behind the protection of your computer screen.
Please run your mouth like that to someone's face in the real world and post the pictures of your face afterwards so we can all laugh at you.


So, after reading your drivel, it's clear to me and everyone else you've never owned a 600+++ rwhp car and you don't have to deal with cold and wet roads. Your IQ is also painfully clear. Now, let's see if you can answer a few simple questions.


#1. What do you OWN that's better performing or more balanced than a 911 Turbo, Gallardo, or GTR ?

#2. What do you OWN that can run with my supercharged C6?

#3. What part of the country do you live in ?

[Bhobbs]

What car does the Camaro compete with has AWD and a DTC?

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Posaune

No, it will add weight and cost to the whole line. Pony cars don't need AWD.

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

What car does the Camaro compete with has AWD and a DTC?

None and that creates an opportunity. DCT is just a better trasmission IMO regardless of gear change times. AWD even if the ATS/CTS variety will make the non V8 coupes more attractive all around particularly in the Northern climates.

GM has an opportunity here. They will likely not take advantage of it.

[FenwickHockey65]

Some people need to cool it with the attitude...

[Autonaut]

Originally Posted by RobC

You're wrong. It's 2015, not 1965.
The pony car is dead. Camaros now weight 4,000 lbs.
Not to mention, the competition offers both DCT and AWD for the same price as a Camaro.


The next Camaro will make 460hp and be traction limited. 4 season conditions will make traction ever worse.
The additional 130lbs +/- that AWD adds is more than worth it, especially on the street.
The cost argument is laughable considering the other cars that are offering AWD at this price point.

Case in point: My G37x SEDAN runs mid 13's in the 1/4, weighs 3,800lbs, and I only paid $32k for it brand new.
For the money, I think the G37x is the ultimate daily driver for all season driving.
If GM offered a Camaro SS with PERFORMANCE AWD, I think it would replace my G37x for the ultimate daily driver for the money.




Tough talk from behind the protection of your computer screen.
Please run your mouth like that to someone's face in the real world and post the pictures of your face afterwards so we can all laugh at you.


So, after reading your drivel, it's clear to me and everyone else you've never owned a 600+++ rwhp car and you don't have to deal with cold and wet roads. Your IQ is also painfully clear. Now, let's see if you can answer a few simple questions.


#1. What do you OWN that's better performing or more balanced than a 911 Turbo, Gallardo, or GTR ?

#2. What do you OWN that can run with my supercharged C6?

#3. What part of the country do you live in ?

In what fantasy world does AWD add 130lbs?
Lol.
Everything you've said so far completely falls apart. You know nothing about cars. That is clear.

And no. Performance cars do not necessarily weigh +4000lbs. The structural integrity added plus the weight of the awd definitely would put the camaro at 4200lbs but would hurt performance in every concieveable way except MAYBE 0-60mph(which is a useless measure these days unless you only drag race)

Im born an raised at an autoshop. Literally. Until i started working with medicine recently i had my own autoshop as well. I still do. Im just not dependent of the income so i only service my own, friends and familys cars. Your pissing contest is foolish.
1: i do not own anything thats is better in your opinion to a GTR.. I care not to. I restore old and classic chevy's instead.
2: nothing. I was nearly killed in my stripped out souped up corvette. It's a miracle nothing serious happened to me. Ever since that i've been building more conservatively.
3: I live in the cold north. We have real winters here. Thats why i think it is stupid to use that as an argument. Even the people that can afford RS4's and 6'es take their 4x4 suv or truck as they dont want the weather to ruin their cars, or get stuck in a snowpile. Awd wont do you any good if your wheels dont have any contact!

Seriously, you're delusional. I understand people, you including, directly or indirectly, say i have an attitude. But i just cant deal with people like you. Know it all people that know nothing about cars yet blatantly tells people they are retarded for buying solid rear axle equipped vehicles. That their cars are inferior due to no dct transmission, irs or awd. Educate yourself.

[Autonaut]

Originally Posted by Number 3

None and that creates an opportunity. DCT is just a better trasmission IMO regardless of gear change times. AWD even if the ATS/CTS variety will make the non V8 coupes more attractive all around particularly in the Northern climates.

GM has an opportunity here. They will likely not take advantage of it.

GM has no DCT transmission as far as i know. If thats the case you need to take this into account. Also, option or not, adding awd would not be needed to dwarf the competetion.
Until GM is forced to go dohc, awd or dct, they wont. Keeping the costs down and still beating the competetion is all they need to stay relevant.

You could be right though. It could give it an edge. But is it worth the costs now?

[EFoxwell]

I don't care about AWD. No point when your front tires aren't on the ground.