[samurai]

But the 16 SS is still clearly the better performance car according to MotorTrends measurements. No matter if the 18 GT has more horesepower, the Camaro is still the faster car, they are just horrible with marketing. Just look how many people saw the "under 4,0s seconds to 60mph"-campaign from the 18 Mustang, Chevy has no interest in selling people that their car is fast

2016 SS MT (from vs M4)
0 - 60: 4.1s
Quarter Mile: 12.4s
Figure Eight: 24.1s
Track: 1: 23: 15

2015 GT PP1 MT (from vs 14 1LE)
0 - 60: 4.6s
Quarter Mile: 12.9s
Figure Eight: 24.4s
Track: 1: 24: 32

2018 GT PP1 MT (from vs 16 1LE)
0 - 60: 4.4s
Quarter Mile: 12.6s
Figure Eight: 24.0s
Track: 1: 23: 97

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by samurai

But the 16 SS is still clearly the better performance car according to MotorTrends measurements. No matter if the 18 GT has more horesepower, the Camaro is still the faster car, they are just horrible with marketing. Just look how many people saw the "under 4,0s seconds to 60mph"-campaign from the 18 Mustang, Chevy has no interest in selling people that their car is fast

2016 SS MT (from vs M4)
0 - 60: 4.1s
Quarter Mile: 12.4s
Figure Eight: 24.1s
Track: 1: 23: 15

2015 GT PP1 MT (from vs 14 1LE)
0 - 60: 4.6s
Quarter Mile: 12.9s
Figure Eight: 24.4s
Track: 1: 24: 32

2018 GT PP1 MT (from vs 16 1LE)
0 - 60: 4.4s
Quarter Mile: 12.6s
Figure Eight: 24.0s
Track: 1: 23: 97

Same with the ZL1 vs Hellcat comparison. The ZL1 is clearly the better performance car. Chevy’s focus is doing everything well. Not a HP number.

I think within the enthusiast circles, people know, and we see the Camaro’s abilities acknowledged by the other camps, both here and on their forums. Some just hate it...just because

Advertising won’t help IMO. Higher ATP and retail sale show Chevy is getting the enthusiast sale in the V8 models. I’d prefer GM focus on getting Cadillacs share of Alpha production up rather than diluting the Camaro with low end trims and rental cars

ZL1 A10
¼ mile: 11.5 sec @ 125.0 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 96 ft
Figure eight: 23.1 sec @0.91 g (avg)
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/camaro/2017/2017-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-first-test-brute-squad-goals/

ZL1 M6
¼ mile: 11.8 sec @ 123.9 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 97 ft
Figure eight: 23.2 sec @0.89 g (avg)
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/...gt350r-review/

Hellcat A8
¼ mile: 11.7 sec @ 125.4 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 109 ft
Figure eight: 24.7 sec @0.85 g (avg)

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/dodge/challenger/2015/2015-dodge-challenger-srt-hellcat-first-test/

2013 GT500
¼ mile: 11.6 sec @ 125.7 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 101 ft
Figure eight: 24.2 sec @0.80 g (avg)
Cost: $64,770 (2013) plus ADM

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/shelby-gt500/2013/2013-ford-shelby-gt500-first-test/

HellcatM6
Standing ¼ mile: 11.9 sec @ 124 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 154 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.91 g

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-dodge-challenger-srt-hellcat-manual-test-review

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by samurai

But the 16 SS is still clearly the better performance car according to MotorTrends measurements. No matter if the 18 GT has more horesepower, the Camaro is still the faster car, they are just horrible with marketing. Just look how many people saw the "under 4,0s seconds to 60mph"-campaign from the 18 Mustang, Chevy has no interest in selling people that their car is fast

2016 SS MT (from vs M4)
0 - 60: 4.1s
Quarter Mile: 12.4s
Figure Eight: 24.1s
Track: 1: 23: 15

2015 GT PP1 MT (from vs 14 1LE)
0 - 60: 4.6s
Quarter Mile: 12.9s
Figure Eight: 24.4s
Track: 1: 24: 32

2018 GT PP1 MT (from vs 16 1LE)
0 - 60: 4.4s
Quarter Mile: 12.6s
Figure Eight: 24.0s
Track: 1: 23: 97

That works if you are buying on numbers that most people will never ever notice. Most people that buy a Camaro will never take it on a track, 1/4 mile or road course. Most people would be hard pressed to determine the difference between a 12.4 and 12.6 second car on a test drive, let alone 12.0 vs 12.1 on the figure 8 (where the Mustang wins).

Also, we have to keep in mind we do not know the balance of GT/SS sales vs. 4 and 6 cylinder cars. I would predict that the SS outsells the GT (to your point, it's the better performance car) but Ford is selling way more 4 and 6 (gone now I believe) cylinder cars giving GM an average higher ATP. Plus up until the 2018 upgrades, the Mustang was a noticeably cheaper car.

ATP is only an indicator. I would bet the CTS has a higher ATP than the Camaro and I am sure GM is having much different discussions on that cars performance and profitability.

If your business plan is based on 80,000 Camaros and you sell 60,000 doesn't mean the car isn't profitable. But it will have a much lower NPV for the company. But if you happen to have planned for a $30,000 ATP and you actually collect $40,000 (mostly due to your customers buying more highly contented models, known as a better mix) then your net income is the same. But we don't know GM's business plan for the Camaro. Selling price and mix are in the plan as is sales volume. No car programgets approved without that plan.

Without data it is difficult to do much more than speculate, which is what the internet is for

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Same with the ZL1 vs Hellcat comparison. The ZL1 is clearly the better performance car. Chevy’s focus is doing everything well. Not a HP number.

I think within the enthusiast circles, people know, and we see the Camaro’s abilities acknowledged by the other camps, both here and on their forums. Some just hate it...just because

Advertising won’t help IMO. Higher ATP and retail sale show Chevy is getting the enthusiast sale in the V8 models. I’d prefer GM focus on getting Cadillacs share of Alpha production up rather than diluting the Camaro with low end trims and rental cars

ZL1 A10
¼ mile: 11.5 sec @ 125.0 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 96 ft
Figure eight: 23.1 sec @0.91 g (avg)
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/camaro/2017/2017-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-first-test-brute-squad-goals/

ZL1 M6
¼ mile: 11.8 sec @ 123.9 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 97 ft
Figure eight: 23.2 sec @0.89 g (avg)
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/...gt350r-review/

Hellcat A8
¼ mile: 11.7 sec @ 125.4 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 109 ft
Figure eight: 24.7 sec @0.85 g (avg)

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/dodge/challenger/2015/2015-dodge-challenger-srt-hellcat-first-test/

2013 GT500
¼ mile: 11.6 sec @ 125.7 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 101 ft
Figure eight: 24.2 sec @0.80 g (avg)
Cost: $64,770 (2013) plus ADM

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/shelby-gt500/2013/2013-ford-shelby-gt500-first-test/

HellcatM6
Standing ¼ mile: 11.9 sec @ 124 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 154 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.91 g

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-dodge-challenger-srt-hellcat-manual-test-review

I would love to see Cadillac build a start at $30k rear wheel drive or all wheel ,may be tough on the alpha but am sure they could. Just don't call it Cimarron .

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le

I would love to see Cadillac build a start at $30k rear wheel drive or all wheel ,may be tough on the alpha but am sure they could. Just don't call it Cimarron .

Cadillac ATS starts at $35,495. CTS at $46,495.

A coworker brought a black ATS-V to the office yesterday.

[DrkPhx]

I was at the local Auto Show last weekend and had a chance to sit in a variety of different cars back to back to compare interiors. My favorite was Audi for ergonomics, layout and materials followed by the C7 Vette (though it is cramped feeling). Next was the 18 Mustang GT which honestly surprised me how nice it was. I sat in a 18 ZL1 and really liked the Recaros seats (my fave) and steering wheel with alcantara. The infotainment layout was fine as well. A lot of people like to complain how it's not integrated into the dash, but I noticed quite a few high end vehicles that have a similar layout (though more like a flat screen TV than an old tube TV sitting on the dash).

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le

I would love to see Cadillac build a start at $30k rear wheel drive or all wheel ,may be tough on the alpha but am sure they could. Just don't call it Cimarron .

An Audi A3 FWD starts at 31,950 and the MB CLA starts at $32,700, also FWD.

Nice thought, with Cadillac already stating the ATS goes off a smaller architecture in the future it likely goes either FWD also or small version of the A2xx, which would be the same compromise made by taking the CTS off of the A1xx.

AWD simply adds $2,000 or more so hoping for AWD below $30,000 is a tough ask.

Evan a Regal Sportback in AWD is $32,695 because you have to option up to a Preferred II to get AWD.

We're on our second AWD ATS now and have enjoyed both. The 2.0T is a really nice engine for that car.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by DrkPhx

I was at the local Auto Show last weekend and had a chance to sit in a variety of different cars back to back to compare interiors. My favorite was Audi for ergonomics, layout and materials followed by the C7 Vette (though it is cramped feeling). Next was the 18 Mustang GT which honestly surprised me how nice it was. I sat in a 18 ZL1 and really liked the Recaros seats (my fave) and steering wheel with alcantara. The infotainment layout was fine as well. A lot of people like to complain how it's not integrated into the dash, but I noticed quite a few high end vehicles that have a similar layout (though more like a flat screen TV than an old tube TV sitting on the dash).

I’ve been lusting on a Audi A5 Premium Plus with a manual. Very, very nice car that has me conflicted at the moment. It’s hard to lay down $53k and get 5.3 sec 0-60 but I want it anyway.

[Gen_Nick3.8]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I’ve been lusting on a Audi A5 Premium Plus with a manual. Very, very nice car that has me conflicted at the moment. It’s hard to lay down $53k and get 5.3 sec 0-60 but I want it anyway.

you want a boring german car? Go right ahead lmaoo!! American Brash muscle ain't for everyone!

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I’ve been lusting on a Audi A5 Premium Plus with a manual. Very, very nice car that has me conflicted at the moment. It’s hard to lay down $53k and get 5.3 sec 0-60 but I want it anyway.

I feel that way about the Audi RS3 ,400 hp all wheel drive is super nice from a 5 cylinder turbo engine .

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by Gen_Nick3.8

you want a boring german car? Go right ahead lmaoo!! American Brash muscle ain't for everyone!

Not everyone has the money for a 1970 SS 454 Chevelle

[DrkPhx]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I’ve been lusting on a Audi A5 Premium Plus with a manual. Very, very nice car that has me conflicted at the moment. It’s hard to lay down $53k and get 5.3 sec 0-60 but I want it anyway.

Makes sense. My friend had an Audi RS7 AWD M6 which I loved. He traded it in for an 09 CTS-V because of performance and better (read:cheaper) modability. I honestly like the Audi interior better, but it's hard to beat the performance value of an American performance in any market segment. Then you factor in maintenance and ease of DIY repairs and imo the American cars win hands down. He also had an older M3 which I helped him work on and what a pita it was. He sold it because he got so sick of dumping money into it for repairs.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I’ve been lusting on a Audi A5 Premium Plus with a manual. Very, very nice car that has me conflicted at the moment. It’s hard to lay down $53k and get 5.3 sec 0-60 but I want it anyway.

Car and Drive shows the 2018 S5 as a 4.3 second car. Increased HP and Tourque from the turbo engine that replaces the 3.0 SC. But they have eliminated the manual and DCT in favor of an 8 speed automatic. Boo. I loved the DCT in my 2013 S4.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...t-drive-review

Audi has one of the most refined interiors in the industry.

Previous gen was a tick faster than 5.3 to 60 as I recall. My S4 was a 4.9 second car, but a long way from the low 4's. AWD makes for a nice launch.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Car and Drive shows the 2018 S5 as a 4.3 second car. Increased HP and Tourque from the turbo engine that replaces the 3.0 SC. But they have eliminated the manual and DCT in favor of an 8 speed automatic. Boo. I loved the DCT in my 2013 S4.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...t-drive-review

Audi has one of the most refined interiors in the industry.

Previous gen was a tick faster than 5.3 to 60 as I recall. My S4 was a 4.9 second car, but a long way from the low 4's. AWD makes for a nice launch.

All the S5 at the dealer start at $63k and go up into $71k. More than I want to spend on a driver and I don’t care for the quilted (?) seats in the S level models.

The interior layout is beautiful in the A5 premium plus (with dark oak) and I like that you can still get a manual transmission to keep it interesting despite the 5.3 sec 0-60. Priced in the low $50s, the A5 is a real sharp coupe for the money. Different value proposition than a 2SS or ZL1...so tempting.