[BigRedViking]

Doing my part to keep the torch going! I can live with the issues, and I hated to see my Fifth Generation Camaro go. But, I love my new car! Price makes a big difference. Here's to April!

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Yes. Assuming they're doing the same equation.

It is possible that Chevy does not agree with you and would rather move the Camaro upmarket.

Let's play the hypothetical game.

GM moves Camaro up market, which natually pushes Corvette even further up, which isn't a big deal as it's performance fits a higher tier already.

The problem comes from, what performance offerings does GM offer below Camaro. They don't have a FoST,FiST, orFoRS equivalents.

So, pushing Camaro upmarket leaves a void. Granted, there's nothing stopping them from developing them, but that begs the question, if GM even wants to build them, why haven't they?

The pricing of the current Camaro already seems to be a slight issue. What's the GM performance fan on a smaller budget supposed to turn to?

[ParisTNDude]

If it were possible to see sales of 4, 6 and 8 cylinder cars, I'm sure you would find Mustang selling a large volume of 6s and 4 cylinder cars. Seeing that we're just starting to deliver 4 cylinders, I'm sure there will be a spike in Camaro sales in April and May. Since we have the better car, it doesn't bother me that much that they're selling better. We beat them for nearly 5 years with the 5th gen. I think the Camaro sales is hindered by the higher cost. Chevy should do what they did many years ago and let you order individual options rather than high priced packages including options you don't really care about.

[z28guy30]

Originally Posted by BigRedViking

Doing my part to keep the torch going! I can live with the issues, and I hated to see my Fifth Generation Camaro go. But, I love my new car! Price makes a big difference. Here's to April!

Beautiful picture and car man! We definitely have to keep the torch burning...GM should have never discontinued the car in 2002. I guess it payed off in the long run with 5th gen sales though!

[ParisTNDude]

Originally Posted by BigRedViking

Doing my part to keep the torch going! I can live with the issues, and I hated to see my Fifth Generation Camaro go. But, I love my new car! Price makes a big difference. Here's to April!

Very nice car...first pic I've seen with a license plate on the front...lol.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

Let's play the hypothetical game.

GM moves Camaro up market, which natually pushes Corvette even further up, which isn't a big deal as it's performance fits a higher tier already.

The problem comes from, what performance offerings does GM offer below Camaro. They don't have a FoST,FiST, orFoRS equivalents.

So, pushing Camaro upmarket leaves a void. Granted, there's nothing stopping them from developing them, but that begs the question, if GM even wants to build them, why haven't they?

The pricing of the current Camaro already seems to be a slight issue. What's the GM performance fan on a smaller budget supposed to turn to?

Oh, I hate the hypothetical game when I'm not writing the rules.....

I agree with you. Chevy is woefully without a performance version of the Sonic, Cruze, and Impala. (Don't get me started on the 'SS' sedan) Ford has also stated that they're introducing new performance models in the next couple of years. My hope is that this push by Ford will force Chevy's hand into putting a little more of a kick into their lower-model cars.

That said...there's a couple paradigm shifts here that I don't think people are ready to speak about and accept.

1) The V8 will never be cheap again. I'm not entirely sure why Ford is still able to offer such a cheap no-options V8 model (it won't be able to for very long)...but thanks to the Federal government and the CAFE standards...V8s and all other high-performance engines are going to be restricted to expensive cars out of the reach of frugal buyers. (bear in mind the average transaction price of an automobile in the US is hovering around $30,000, today) Making a vehicle more expensive by loading it with equipment is the best way to reduce volume and therefore the impact on the CAFE number without telling customers outright "no, you can't have it". So if the buyer on a budget expects to get a V8-powered Camaro...they're going to be disappointed.

2) The V6 and turbo 4 cars are legitimately fast cars. And a good option for that budget buyer. They're overshadowed by the SS and ZL1 models, and I'm afraid an unfair stereotype still exists...but the fact remains that they are putting performance numbers down to rival V8-powered cars only a decade old. Fast is fast, no matter how high the bar keeps getting raised.

The same Alpha chassis that underpins the $26,000 T4 Camaro is also being used to sell the $50,000 T4 CTS, $60,000 ATS-V, and the $85,000 CTS-V. Can you guess the amount of profit they make on those cars? I think Camaro has a relatively secure future so long as the program can pay for itself, because it's more expensive Cadillac cousins are bringing in double or triple the profit margins to help pay for the development costs of that platform.

IMHO....I don't think 6th generation sales are low only because of the price (which in many cases is the same as the competition), the evolutionary styling, the visibility, or low advertising...but rather, I think sales are lower than years before because of a little bit of all three. The Camaro is EASILY the better car...but in some forms it is a more expensive choice, it's got a dramatic style that requires you "get used to it", and it hasn't really been pushed outside of magazines and online stuff.

Finally...The first quarter, March especially, was a massive rental/fleet time for Ford...they've even said so. And don't forget the big rebates currently offered on the pony, as new as it is. Camaro has virtually none...I don't expect Mustang sales to stay this high for long.

Now my turn to play the hypothetical game....

Corvette turns mid-engined supercar, starts life as fast as a Z06......Camaro SS, ZL1, and Z/28 take the place of the Stingray and front-engined Z06 while the Camaro T4 and V6 stay where they are...hmmmmmmm.....

Originally Posted by ParisTNDude

Very nice car...first pic I've seen with a license plate on the front...lol.

Me, too!

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by ParisTNDude

If it were possible to see sales of 4, 6 and 8 cylinder cars, I'm sure you would find Mustang selling a large volume of 6s and 4 cylinder cars. Seeing that we're just starting to deliver 4 cylinders, I'm sure there will be a spike in Camaro sales in April and May. Since we have the better car, it doesn't bother me that much that they're selling better. We beat them for nearly 5 years with the 5th gen. I think the Camaro sales is hindered by the higher cost. Chevy should do what they did many years ago and let you order individual options rather than high priced packages including options you don't really care about.

The last number I've been able to find show in the US take rate for Mustang buyers, as of Q4 last year, was 52% GT and the other 48% is about any even split between the EB and the V6. I'll update with more current numbers if I can find any.

[BigRedViking]

Originally Posted by ParisTNDude

Very nice car...first pic I've seen with a license plate on the front...lol.

If I could have ordered a B4C I would have. People are complaining that the styling is too similar. But now I like that because it reminds me of what a great car the Fifth is. I realize that fewer trims keep production costs lower. But I think a B4C would be a nice option for those about to rock Realistically what kind of numbers do yall think a B4C could produce? I definitely feel like I got more than what I paid for.

[bballr4567]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

The last number I've been able to find show in the US take rate for Mustang buyers, as of Q4 last year, was 52% GT and the other 48% is about any even split between the EB and the V6. I'll update with more current numbers if I can find any.

Someone in the industry on GMi (gminsidenews) said that they were 37, 28 and 45 (I think, search is down for me over there) in the Q1 2016.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Interesting factoid...GM sold 10,237 Alpha-based cars in March. 6879 of these were $27k - $48k Camaros...the rest were $33k - $84k Cadillacs.

So The mustang outsold all 3 Alpha cars....OUCH. I Honestly think GM has to be a little disappointed with the ATS and CTS sales. They are such good cars, but it seems like it has been a downward trend with both of them lately.

Originally Posted by YellowFin

As long as Camaros are selling well enough to make money to stay in production I'm good with it. There is more exclusivity to owning a Camaro (or Challenger) versus a Mustang. You see a Mustang on every corner...not a Camaro. This "cheapens" the Mustang to me. I've owned a Mustang, and it's a good car...Camaro has my heart though.

Interesting. Where I am from 10-15 It seemed like 5th gens were everywhere and S197's(2010+ especially 13s and 14s) were rare.

Originally Posted by suzook

They are not aware. It's obvious by all the comments I get about mine. I get people constantly asking what kind of car is that? They love it. The difference exterior wise is very different in person between the c5 and c6. Do they look similar??? Absolutely, but the c6 is noticed everywhere I go. I don't understand people saying it's not much different. My honest opinion on the "terrible" sales numbers is the price. I have no issues paying more for a MUCH better car.

As I have said numerous times in sales threads. The general public is dumb. To the general public they might not notice the difference until they are right next to each other.

Originally Posted by RenegadeXR

Translation: You know the value of a fully loaded 2SS vs a BMW M2. My response: Of course. But the general public doesn't.

I feel like sometimes, when I try to bring this point across, it's like talking to a brick wall.

This ^ Hell some people still don't even want to accept Cadillac as a legit BMW Competitor, good luck pushing a Chevy as that. Sorry that's the attitude that the general public will have.

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

Let's play the hypothetical game.

GM moves Camaro up market, which natually pushes Corvette even further up, which isn't a big deal as it's performance fits a higher tier already.

The problem comes from, what performance offerings does GM offer below Camaro. They don't have a FoST,FiST, orFoRS equivalents.

So, pushing Camaro upmarket leaves a void. Granted, there's nothing stopping them from developing them, but that begs the question, if GM even wants to build them, why haven't they?

The pricing of the current Camaro already seems to be a slight issue. What's the GM performance fan on a smaller budget supposed to turn to?

I still have no idea why GM does not have a hot hatch to take on the ST. They could do it so easily if they wanted to, and I don't see much risk in trying....why not! Hell even the Fusion is getting a 325HP Sport variant.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Oh, I hate the hypothetical game when I'm not writing the rules.....

I agree with you. Chevy is woefully without a performance version of the Sonic, Cruze, and Impala. (Don't get me started on the 'SS' sedan) Ford has also stated that they're introducing new performance models in the next couple of years. My hope is that this push by Ford will force Chevy's hand into putting a little more of a kick into their lower-model cars.

That said...there's a couple paradigm shifts here that I don't think people are ready to speak about and accept.

1) The V8 will never be cheap again. I'm not entirely sure why Ford is still able to offer such a cheap no-options V8 model (it won't be able to for very long)...but thanks to the Federal government and the CAFE standards...V8s and all other high-performance engines are going to be restricted to expensive cars out of the reach of frugal buyers. (bear in mind the average transaction price of an automobile in the US is hovering around $30,000, today) Making a vehicle more expensive by loading it with equipment is the best way to reduce volume and therefore the impact on the CAFE number without telling customers outright "no, you can't have it". So if the buyer on a budget expects to get a V8-powered Camaro...they're going to be disappointed.

2) The V6 and turbo 4 cars are legitimately fast cars. And a good option for that budget buyer. They're overshadowed by the SS and ZL1 models, and I'm afraid an unfair stereotype still exists...but the fact remains that they are putting performance numbers down to rival V8-powered cars only a decade old. Fast is fast, no matter how high the bar keeps getting raised.

The same Alpha chassis that underpins the $26,000 T4 Camaro is also being used to sell the $50,000 T4 CTS, $60,000 ATS-V, and the $85,000 CTS-V. Can you guess the amount of profit they make on those cars? I think Camaro has a relatively secure future so long as the program can pay for itself, because it's more expensive Cadillac cousins are bringing in double or triple the profit margins to help pay for the development costs of that platform.

IMHO....I don't think 6th generation sales are low only because of the price (which in many cases is the same as the competition), the evolutionary styling, the visibility, or low advertising...but rather, I think sales are lower than years before because of a little bit of all three. The Camaro is EASILY the better car...but in some forms it is a more expensive choice, it's got a dramatic style that requires you "get used to it", and it hasn't really been pushed outside of magazines and online stuff.

Finally...The first quarter, March especially, was a massive rental/fleet time for Ford...they've even said so. And don't forget the big rebates currently offered on the pony, as new as it is. Camaro has virtually none...I don't expect Mustang sales to stay this high for long.

Now my turn to play the hypothetical game....

Corvette turns mid-engined supercar, starts life as fast as a Z06......Camaro SS, ZL1, and Z/28 take the place of the Stingray and front-engined Z06 while the Camaro T4 and V6 stay where they are...hmmmmmmm.....



Me, too!

You point #1 makes the most sense after thinking about it.

Also the no incentives I assume you are talking direct from GM. My local dealer (which is a huge dealer) is offering between 2700 and 3400 off on 6th Gen Camaros.

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

The last number I've been able to find show in the US take rate for Mustang buyers, as of Q4 last year, was 52% GT and the other 48% is about any even split between the EB and the V6. I'll update with more current numbers if I can find any.

That would be interesting to see.

[AZCamaroFan]

first, BigRedViking,,,that is the perfect Camaro
second, Mr Wyndham right on everything as usual.
my speculation: No Camaro is not going 'upscale'. You can get one for 26k that does 0-60 in 5.4 , and you can get a loaded coupe up to 48k. plus the Zl1 and Convertible.

and as for mustang, it better sell a lot since it's on it's own platform.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by ChefBorOzzy

Mustang sales will stay better. I wonder what percentage of Mustang sales are fleet.. 20 percent? 5? Somewhere in between?

I think in 2014 27 percent of Ford sales were fleet.

YTD 36% of FoMoCo's are to fleet but that is expected to drop as the year progresses. Most years 25% of Mustangs are rental cars vs 20% Challengers and 15% Camaro's.

But I don't think that tells the whole story. Mustang is dirt cheap right now. Base GT V8 is selling for $5k less than 1SS Camaro. V6 Mustang selling for $2k less than V6 Camaro. Cheaper cars almost always outsell more expensive cars. The exception was the 5th gen Camaro that not only outsold the Mustang but had higher ATP's ($1,500-3,000 more when similarly equipped).

Originally Posted by shaffe

So The mustang outsold all 3 Alpha cars....OUCH. I Honestly think GM has to be a little disappointed with the ATS and CTS sales. They are such good cars, but it seems like it has been a downward trend with both of them lately.

To be fair, nearly ALL luxury sedan sales were down in 2015, especially the larger sedans. People are paying more for the ATS and CTS than years past - that is the goal. Profits matter more than volume, especially in the luxury market. There is more than 4X profit generated from luxury cars vs mainstream brands.

[ChocoTaco369]

In my opinion, it is a poor idea to compare 2016 sales to 2015 sales for YoY growth/decay estimates. 2015 was an outgoing year, and everybody knew it. It is more intelligent to compare 2016 sales to 2014 sales.

The Camaro's #1 headwind will remain its gigantic price increase. My coworker just impulse-bought a 2016 SS with the automagic on Friday. Black on black. I must say, it's noticeably smaller and less aggressive than my car side-by-side. GM did themselves little favors with the exterior styling and pricing if volume was their goal.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369

In my opinion, it is a poor idea to compare 2016 sales to 2015 sales for YoY growth/decay estimates. 2015 was an outgoing year, and everybody knew it. It is more intelligent to compare 2016 sales to 2014 sales.

The Camaro's #1 headwind will remain its gigantic price increase. My coworker just impulse-bought a 2016 SS with the automagic on Friday. Black on black. I must say, it's noticeably smaller and less aggressive than my car side-by-side. GM did themselves little favors with the exterior styling and pricing if volume was their goal.

Styling could be influential....but I think the 6th gen's sharp body lines make the gen 5 appear a bit mundane.