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Old 03-21-2014, 06:42 PM   #1
ALLTRBO
 
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AWD swap possibility?

Before we get started, I'll just get this out of the way now:

1) No, the 6thgen won't come with an AWD option from the factory... that's a virtual guarantee.
2) AWD Camaro? OMGNOOOOO!!!!11!1one1!!1 THAT'S THE MOST HORRIBLE IDEA EVaR!!! THE EARTH WILL GET HURLED STRAIGHT INTO THE SUN IF THAT EVER HAPPENS!!1!!!11! JUST BUY A STOOPID IMPORT YOU IDIOTT1!!1!1!!! *throws up in mouth* (...okay, I just had to get that one out of the way for some of you so it doesn't have to be endlessly repeated.)
3) If #2 adequately expresses your feelings on the subject, please keep them to yourself.
4) Yes, there are some definite tradeoffs with AWD vs RWD. This thread isn't meant to be the place to bicker back and forth like little children about them. Honest, mature discussion is always a good thing, whining like little babies is never a good thing (unless you're a little baby).

Okay, so:

I've always wished for an AWD Camaro for many experienced reasons, but it was never a realistic proposition...

...until 2016?

There are a lot of unknowns, but it's got the rusty wheels in my head turning, so I figured I'd look into it just a little bit. Before I go further, I have to add that a V8 may not be in the cards for this (BlasphemyOMG!!!... Whatever. Let's not go there). If you're still interested in the idea as well, then read on...

We all know that the 6th gen will be based on the Alpha platform, which, of course, the Cadillac ATS is based on. The ATS is available in AWD, though only with the N/A V6 and an auto tranny.

While the 6thgen Camaro will likely be a much different car than the ATS (consider that the Pontiac G8 was on the Zeta platform which they modified for the Camaro), it's possible, but definitely not a certainty, that the Camaro will have a similar enough chassis/suspension/drivetrain setup to the ATS that swapping some of these things around might be a feasible proposition.

Unfortunately there is no manual tranny with AWD in the ATS, but some reviewers have been saying that the 6L45 auto in the ATS shifts lightning-quick in sport mode. I've never liked slushboxes but I might be okay with a quick shifting flappy-paddle 6-speed if the gear ratios are reasonable. The 6L45 that is mated to the 3.6 and the AWD system is the weakest in that family of transmissions, but I can't find its actual torque rating. I would imagine that it probably won't handle much more than the stock N/A 3.6 for hard use, but I could be wrong.

The 6L50 is supposed to be very similar to the 6L45 and it's rated at 332 lb/ft in a 5000 lb vehicle. The 6L50 is the trans in the current auto V6 Camaro, and while it isn't rated very high, some forum members have used it reliably in some rather high HP boosted V6's (GretchenGotGrowl comes to mind). Those aren't necessarily used in high-traction situations though, at least all the time, like an AWD car might be. Regardless, they sound like they can handle some abuse. The torque converter sounds like a different story, though, as there are several reports of them failing in stock cars. There are aftermarket converters available though, and I'd want a higher stall than stock anyway to get the most out of the newfound traction.
The question there remains... how similar is the 6L50 to the 6L45? Would they be a direct swap, or could you beef up the 6L45 with the innards of a 6L50? They are both similar and designed for AWD use, so they might bolt up to the same transfer case, no?
Going further, could you use any stronger parts from a 6L80 or 6L90 in the 6L50? The 6L80 is the auto used in the current L99 Camaro. This might be a further stretch, but I only know that the 6L45/6L50/6L80/6L90 are the same family of transmissions with the same basic design. Does anyone know what, if any, parts are interchangeable?
Regardless of which, a big honkin' trans cooler is a given.

The transfer case is the next consideration, and honestly I don't even know what type of transfer case it is. So far, the most I've been able to find that is remotely related is:
"The 6L50 all-wheel-drive transfer case in CTS applications uses an active center differential, responding to traction conditions and assigning torque to the axle with the most available traction"
That means diddly squat other than to say that it's a 'real' AWD transfer case (unlike some open-diff brake-activated systems out there). Does anyone know what type of diff it uses? Is that the same case that's in the ATS? Torque ratings?

The front and rear diffs and axles have it easier because only part of the power is going to them. I don't imagine they'd not handle a good amount of power,
but GM might have skimped on the components because it's not a performance designed system. I don't know.

The V8 (most likely LT5) in the Camaro might not have clearance for the front diff and axles. I have no idea if it does or doesn't, but it very well might not. For some of you, that kills it right from the start. For me...
moar bOOst!!!
The upcoming ATS Vsport will have the 420hp TT V6, though only with RWD. It is, of course, the same engine externally as the N/A 3.6 in the ATS AWD, which will probably be the same engine in the Camaro, except that it has some pretty tightly packaged turbos. That's another unknown to me... Would the turbos have clearance for the AWD components? If not, custom piping is always a possibility, but makes it a tad bit harder. If so, great!
I don't know the potential of this TT 3.6 yet, but usually a lot more power is just a few more psi away...

So, this is all premature of course, but to me a highly boosted 3.6TT AWD 6thgen would be an amazing car to say the least... and still likely lighter than any 5thgen V8.
Does anyone here have the answers to some of the unknowns?
If it won't be reasonably doable, then at least I had to spin the gears in my head for short bit. That's never a bad thing.
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Old 03-22-2014, 09:23 AM   #2
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Very interesting idea. Looks like you have definately done your homework. It would be a very ambitious (and expensive) project, but I think it would be cool if it could be done.

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Old 03-22-2014, 09:31 AM   #3
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I have only ever owned RWD cars with the exception of the wife's' beetle, wouldn't mind that to be AWD either , I love RWD. But I have also driven an WRX with most bolt ons and a few goodies and was right at 300 awhp, and that thing hauled ass and didn't get stuck. I don't see how and AWD Camaro would be bad... not everyone's cup of tea... but still not bad. Anything is doable in the car world. I just don't see GM doing it. or at least doing it right. case in point the AY6 manual shitbox tranny I have in my v6.. behind a 323+ hp engine..
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Old 03-22-2014, 09:33 AM   #4
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It would be a great all weather daily driver!
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Old 03-22-2014, 09:45 AM   #5
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I personally think a AWD camaro would be bad ass. But very expensive to do.
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Old 03-22-2014, 09:53 AM   #6
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Have to keep in mind there is a HUGE difference between the AWD system GM uses in the ATS/CTS and FULL TIME AWD as used by Audi.

The ATS system only kicks on when there is wheel slip detected.

So yes, it would make the car a much better car in bad/slippery driving conditions, but the GM system is not a performance enhancing system.

I can tell you just driving Mrs. Number 3's ATS and my Audi S4 in the snow is an eye opener.

So would it be nice for an all weather sporty coupe? Yep, but in an SS or Zxx it better be full time AWD or there is no value.

Besides it adds a LOT of weight. A couple hundred pounds or so.
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Old 03-22-2014, 10:31 AM   #7
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Old 03-22-2014, 12:10 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
Have to keep in mind there is a HUGE difference between the AWD system GM uses in the ATS/CTS and FULL TIME AWD as used by Audi.

The ATS system only kicks on when there is wheel slip detected.

So yes, it would make the car a much better car in bad/slippery driving conditions, but the GM system is not a performance enhancing system.

I can tell you just driving Mrs. Number 3's ATS and my Audi S4 in the snow is an eye opener.

So would it be nice for an all weather sporty coupe? Yep, but in an SS or Zxx it better be full time AWD or there is no value.

Besides it adds a LOT of weight. A couple hundred pounds or so.
That's why I asked about the Tcase, that's basically the main part that makes the AWD system what it is. There are dozens of designs, and they certainly do have their particular uses.

"Full time AWD" and "Only kicks in when wheel slip is detected" or the like are honestly just marketing phrases. That can mean everything from a viscous coupling to an open center diff that is more or less useless until the system applies the brakes at one end of the car to transfer power to the other end.
Do you know what type of system the ATS has? If it's the former, that's great. If it's the latter, well, then, not so much. There are also several other types and combinations of types of AWD systems.
Depending on the year, it appears that the Audi S4 Quattro IV uses either a Torsen center diff in conjunction with wheel braking, or just a Torsen alone. You probably know more about your car's AWD than I do, I have to research more. Not all Audi systems are the same either.

It's awesome that you have both an AWD ATS and an AWD Audi for comparison. I believe you that the Quattro is superior in the snow, but the 'why' can be very telling.

Even if the ATS' Tcase just has a basic open diff, then all is not lost. Adapters and custom length shafts to swap in other Tcases are very doable, but adding the whole front half of an AWD system to a chassis that was never designed for it can border on impossible. If the Alpha Camaro has that problem taken care of, then a performance AWD system still a very feasible proposition.

Yes of course AWD adds weight. That's one of the tradeoffs, but to me it's well worth it. I have plenty of experience with both AWD and RWD high performance cars, and AWD becomes more and more useful in a street car as the power level goes up and up and up.
The (4 door) 3.6L RWD ATS is listed at 3461. The otherwise identical AWD weighs in at 3629 lb, for a total increase of 168 lbs. That is like adding an average adult male passenger, except it's closer to the car's CG. Not a bad tradeoff at all, IMO.
We don't yet know what the 6th gen will weigh, but it's quite possible that even with an LF3 (TT 3.6) and AWD, it will still come in under the lightest of the V6 5thgens, much less the SS, and in a different weight class altogether than the porky ZL1.

It would definitely be an expensive endeavor, no question there. However, you would start with a base V6 car, and that would help offset some of the cost compared to a higher performance variation (whatever they decide to call it). I'm sure there will be plenty of rear-ended low-mileage AWD ATS' by then to steal the parts from. I doubt LF3's will be falling out of the sky though, might be pretty pricey for that one.
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