[hotlap]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

This is where you're completely wrong. Ford knew what the 1LE ran. They chose to not compete with it on the PP1. They didn't fail, they are targeting a different audience. In other-words, they didn't care about beating the 1LE. That obviously pissed off some engineers, hence the reason they went ahead with the PP2.

As for tires overall, Ford is playing the game differently. Tires are expensive, and Ford knows a majority don't care about having expensive summer tires on their base GT package. Sure, it sucks for those that want a wider/better tire...but for those that truly care there is always the PP1.

These aren't failures, these are marketing decisions. As it stands, Ford offers (in V8 form) the GT, PP1, PP2, GT350, GT350R. They will soon offer the Bullitt as well as the GT500. That's a hell of a lineup if you ask me.

Mustang fans continually say it’s tires and suspension yet every Aplha Camaro review at any trim level says the same thing. The chassis is superb and the steering flawless. The Mustang is a sloppy mess with the exception of the GT350R and it’s widely believed a 1LE will run with a GT350TP despite its truck engine being down 71 HP.

I keep citing the third 10Best but you can find the same sentiment in any Alpha Camaro review. The chassis is one of the best in the world. Not the tires. It’s Camaros,not 1LE

The simple truth is GM cares more about chassis dynamic and that’s been evident for several generations. Ford half asses it.

Chevrolet Camaro V-6 / SS / ZL1 Coupes
...About that chassis. It’s one of the best in the world, with the kind of preternaturally intuitive steering, faultless brakes, and overall balance you’d expect from a Porsche.

Camaros are among the most sophisticated driver’s cars in the world. And three consecutive years on the 10Best Cars list proves that this Chevy isn’t just great at attacking a corner, it has also turned one.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...-coupes-page-4

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

So it’s OK for the 1LE to have much wider front and rear tires than the PP1, but when the PP2 matches the rear tire width of the 1le and has wider fronts…it’s compensating for an inferior chassis? Really? Are you listening to yourself?

Easy dude, no need to get worked up about it. Step outside your Mustang bias, and try and just see things from a open perspective. YES, needing to throw 305s on the front just to compete with a car with 285s is indicative of a poor chassis.

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Exactly, it’s the same damn chassis…how no-one else gets this is beyond me.

We get it dude. It just isn't SO impressive to people who are not fanboys. Its a great car no doubt, but is not faster than the cheaper 1LE. Cooler for sure, but we are talking performance only.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

This is where you're completely wrong. Ford knew what the 1LE ran. They chose to not compete with it on the PP1. They didn't fail, they are targeting a different audience. In other-words, they didn't care about beating the 1LE. That obviously pissed off some engineers, hence the reason they went ahead with the PP2.

As for tires overall, Ford is playing the game differently. Tires are expensive, and Ford knows a majority don't care about having expensive summer tires on their base GT package. Sure, it sucks for those that want a wider/better tire...but for those that truly care there is always the PP1.

These aren't failures, these are marketing decisions. As it stands, Ford offers (in V8 form) the GT, PP1, PP2, GT350, GT350R. They will soon offer the Bullitt as well as the GT500. That's a hell of a lineup if you ask me.

The GT and PP1 don't match the SS. The 350 and 350R don't match the ZL1. The Bullitt with 15 more horsepower won't match the SS either. Even if the PP2 and the GT500 are competitive this gen is a loss across the board for the Mustang. Only way it could get worse at this point is if Chevy gives us a Z28.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The simple truth is GM cares more about chassis dynamic and that’s been evident for several generations. Ford half asses it.

A good friend in the performance cars sector once told me:

"Ford builds engines, GM builds cars."

And if you really pay attention, you see it in almost every circumstance.

And yet...this is also why Ford sells more Mustangs...the buying public-at-large wants a cheap V8, and they don't realize how horrible the chassis/handling is in those models, because they've never driven one of the better ones.

[FastCarFanBoy]

alot of praise and bashing going on about chassis when nobody has any actual data to back up those claims.

S550 chassis is garbage because its less what than alpha? and please include hard data in support.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

alot of praise and bashing going on about chassis when nobody has any actual data to back up those claims.

S550 chassis is garbage because its less what than alpha? and please include hard data in support.

Good grief. Pay attention man! There are years of professional reviews including this recent head to head saying a the Performance Package 1 is like sitting on a stack of phone books on top of a water bed. Performance Package 1!

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

alot of praise and bashing going on about chassis when nobody has any actual data to back up those claims.

S550 chassis is garbage because its less what than alpha? and please include hard data in support.

When the 15-17 GT PP was slower at Lightning Lap than a v6 1LE. The 18 GT PP1 is slower by almost a second than the base SS. It is also slower in 1/4 and 0-60. The SS 1LE beat a GT 350. The only ONLY time the S550 actually had better performance was when the 350R eeked out a win against the 15 Z28. On the Zeta platform. Ford has not had a win yet against the Alpha.

When reviewers compare the GT PP1 to sitting on a stack of phone books placed on a waterbed you still require more proof. I can tell you I have owned both 6th gen cars. The Mustang is sloppy, loose and feels like driving on marshmellow. The Camaro is so much stiffer, more responsive, and feels so much lighter it is night and day.

If you think the S550 is so good, go buy one. Get rid of that S197 and experience it for yourself. Tell us you're happy to spend 43k on a stripped down PP1 or 50k+ for a premium PP2.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

alot of praise and bashing going on about chassis when nobody has any actual data to back up those claims.

S550 chassis is garbage because its less what than alpha? and please include hard data in support.

Simple. Drive them both. Or read the thoughts of those that do. I had the opportunity to drive the V6 Mustang vs both the Turbo and V6 Camaros around a track. It was hard to believe those cars were all within $5k of each other, because the Camaro handle and reacted like an expensive European car while the Mustang felt like an old Kia. It was wild how big of a difference there was. I seriously was not prepared for that. It heaved and dived during accel/decel; pushed like the front tires were 195s; steering didn't react to inputs; once in a bend, it lost grip suddenly - not gradually; and bumps, dips, or curbing anywhere in a turn upset the balance in a scary-fashion. Even the 2015 V6 that was there handled better, and that hadn't changed since 2010. I know this is the V6 model I'm bringing up...but come on.

It's not a matter of less/more. That's too simplistic of thinking...If that were the case, by now, 100+ years after the automobile was invented, every RWD car would be identical underneath.

No, it has everything to do with suspension geometry and design, coupled with component quality, stiffness and rigidity, and properly tuning all of these factors together for the purpose the car was meant for.

The current Mustang chassis may not be inherently "bad" in design, obviously the GT350 can handle alright...but Ford is clearly not working very hard to make the entire lineup the best it can be. Whereas the Camaro Team has purposefully integrated each of those aspects above in every trim level to varying degrees, Mustang team seems to be happy with saying "That'll do", except for the most expensive models. And even the GT350 is an extremely difficult car to align properly...though Ford (and the other manufacturers) sets their cars up real nice for the magazines, so they never know any better.

Finally, I'll say this: The Gen SIX Camaro is the pinnacle of handling and suspension engineering that GM has accomplished thus far.

It started in 2010 with the Zeta II Camaro SS. It was "ok", like everyone is accusing the Mustang of being, now. So...two years later, they used ZL1 development to redesign the stabilizer bar placement for better results - and this resulted in improvements across the entire lineup. One year after that, they upped the bar again using some very simple but effective changes to the suspension and created the 1LE package. And then they again improved with the Z/28, introducing DSSV dampers, and some hard-mounted chassis components. Each time they did that - they learned something new about making that car go around a track, and feel confident on regular roads.

Now, in Gen SIX, with the lighter, better-designed Alpha chassis...all of those lessons learned in Gen 5 are being put to use, and further improved upon. The V6 1LE turns lap times almost as quick as last gen's SS...the current SS is as quick as the old SS 1LE, the new SS 1LE tickles the Mustang GT350, and the Gen 5 ZL1...the new ZL1 outpaces the old Z/28, and the new ZL1 1LE breaks ground where no Camaro has ever been before.

The Mustang has no doubt improved...but at a much, much, much slower pace (no pun intended), and the result is what we see here. No excuses about intended targets, etc, mean anything. They owe a little better effort to their customers. The PP1 SHOULD be the way they set up the GT as standard, and hopefully this PP2 is good and can give the SS 1LE a challenge...but they're relying on DOT R tires to do it, not excellence in chassis development.

[FastCarFanBoy]

I asked about the chassis. not the tires, suspension, steering programming. The Gt350 proves what the S550 chassis is capable of and that shows it every bit as capable as alpha given similar tires, suspension, and steering.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

I asked about the chassis. not the tires, suspension, steering programming. The Gt350 proves what the S550 chassis is capable of and that shows it every bit as capable as alpha given similar tires, suspension, and steering.

So is that why the higher HP GT350 with even wider front tires is slower around the track than the SS 1LE?

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

I asked about the chassis. not the tires, suspension, steering programming. The Gt350 proves what the S550 chassis is capable of and that shows it every bit as capable as alpha given similar tires, suspension, and steering.

Those are all components of the chassis. If we're going to play tomato/tomato...then should we specify "All the parts that make the car turn and respond to drive inputs"? Individually cast components are just parts of the whole that is what this discussion seems to be about. Isolating the topic to just "the chassis" is irrelevant.

And I agree - GT350R proves the chassis is capable in similar setups at that performance level. The regular GT350, however, is an example that makes my point of Ford "settling" with that car's lower trim levels.

And therefore why, in similar setups at lower levels, does it suck so bad? The answer is either A) They got lazy, B) They don't think any of their customers at those levels what a good-handling car, so they settled, C) They allocated their time and money elsewhere in the car, or D) They don't know what they're doing. I doubt "D" is the case, and I don't see any evidence for "C", except perhaps the Voodoo engine.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

I asked about the chassis. not the tires, suspension, steering programming. The Gt350 proves what the S550 chassis is capable of and that shows it every bit as capable as alpha given similar tires, suspension, and steering.

The same 350 that was beat by the SS 1LE? The same 350 that is entirely different from the GT from the windshield forward? That one?


Either you are playing Devil's advocate here or you are trolling. Until the PP2 comes out there really is nothing more to talk about here.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

I asked about the chassis. not the tires, suspension, steering programming. The Gt350 proves what the S550 chassis is capable of and that shows it every bit as capable as alpha given similar tires, suspension, and steering.

But it takes a 350r to prove it can handle. But that’s a strip down car with no back seat, short cup2 tires, and carbon fiber wheels to do it, yet it’s only about 1.5 sec faster then a SS 1le on the track.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

So is that why the higher HP GT350 with even wider front tires is slower around the track than the SS 1LE?

were the 2 cars ever run same day, same driver?

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Those are all components of the chassis. If we're going to play tomato/tomato...then should we specify "All the parts that make the car turn and respond to drive inputs"? Individually cast components are just parts of the whole that is what this discussion seems to be about. Isolating the topic to just "the chassis" is irrelevant.

And I agree - GT350R proves the chassis is capable in similar setups at that performance level. The regular GT350, however, is an example that makes my point of Ford "settling" with that car's lower trim levels.

And therefore why, in similar setups at lower levels, does it suck so bad? The answer is either A) They got lazy, B) They don't think any of their customers at those levels what a good-handling car, so they settled, C) They allocated their time and money elsewhere in the car, or D) They don't know what they're doing. I doubt "D" is the case, and I don't see any evidence for "C", except perhaps the Voodoo engine.

ok so we agree that S550 is not "bad" as the people who dont know what a chassis is by definition keep proclaiming. that was what I was asking.

you may dislike or not understand Fords approach in its packaging and thats fine...I dont either in some respects.