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Old 11-13-2013, 05:54 PM   #197
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the side view just looks too outdated. The handles maybe need to be different, also it looks like it's the same size of the current camaro, we know it'll be smaller
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Old 11-13-2013, 07:59 PM   #198
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I bought the 5th gen because I loved the look and design of it. Best Camaro design since the 2nd gen, not that the 3rd and 4th were bad looking, but they didn't make me say damn I want one of those. If the 5th gen looked like this design I would be driving a Trailblazer SS. This design is a better redesign for the Monte Carlo than the Camaro, just saying.
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Old 11-13-2013, 08:36 PM   #199
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Sorry doc, but after spending quite a long time looking though this thread and the latest revisions I just don't get it at all. Other than the bowtie and the word Camaro on it, it has no resemblance to a GM product. I'm no designer, but I would assume that a golden rule of design is to keep brand identity. I think it looks extremely awkward. Not saying that I could do any better, and I commend your attempt. However I can go along with status quo on this one.
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Old 11-14-2013, 12:27 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by stt816 View Post
the side view just looks too outdated. The handles maybe need to be different, also it looks like it's the same size of the current camaro, we know it'll be smaller
Yeah the original concept has a recessed handle on the doors; not the one you see pictured. I haven't done that part yet. The comparison shot next to the 5th gen concept uses a free 3D model I downloaded off the internet which isn't exactly accurate in it's dimensions. I scaled it to match the tire sizes on my model to get it as close as I could but the length-to-width is wrong (it's too long) and the ground clearance is obviously way too high. I did it to provide a styling comparison rather than an engineering/blueprint comparison. My design is actually now within less than 2 inches of the Alpha platform dimensions.

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Originally Posted by Chaotic73 View Post
I bought the 5th gen because I loved the look and design of it. Best Camaro design since the 2nd gen, not that the 3rd and 4th were bad looking, but they didn't make me say damn I want one of those. If the 5th gen looked like this design I would be driving a Trailblazer SS. This design is a better redesign for the Monte Carlo than the Camaro, just saying.
Fair enough. I've made it clear from the beginning this style wouldn't be for everybody. GM has 40% of the market which means more people than not didn't buy a Camaro. I realize this design might lose a few of the retro crowd but I think we'd pick up some of that 60% who weren't into retro so it would at least balance out and maybe gain a point or two. The upscale crowd is more affluent and more likely to have multiple vehicles so I think a more upscale muscle/road GT design would appeal to that segment of the market. It's also difficult to get an exact feel for how a car looks from a flat 2D image. A properly finished with all the details car might make a better impression on you if you saw one for real in a showroom. It's also not unusual for people's initial reactions to just a photo or drawing change once they start seeing them for real.

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Sorry doc, but after spending quite a long time looking though this thread and the latest revisions I just don't get it at all. Other than the bowtie and the word Camaro on it, it has no resemblance to a GM product. I'm no designer, but I would assume that a golden rule of design is to keep brand identity. I think it looks extremely awkward. Not saying that I could do any better, and I commend your attempt. However I can go along with status quo on this one.
I'm assuming you meant "can't" go along? At least you took the time to give it a fair look and consideration which is all I can ask.

The strongest "identity" element is the upper front which has the Camaro 'smile' of the 5th gen, although sharper, sleeker and more refined. It has a pretty-close-to-exact same hood as the 5th gen. The rear recess is loosely styled as a somewhat hybrid of the 1970 shape with very stylized versions of the 1969 tail lights. Those are the only elements that were intentionally based on heritage styling.

As I've stated before at some point the Camaro platform has to progress to it's own "new" look which means departing from just looking like a modern version of retro which is what the 5th gen was. That was a great look no question; I love my 2010 and intend to keep it for the rest of my life. But when you consider how fast they use to make changes (every model year) compared to now; 5 years with essentially the same design is a long time. The 1967 body lasted 2 years with the only change in 68 being tail lights and front grill/lights. The 1969 lasted a year and a half and then they made a complete change to the mid 1970 model which was clearly a move towards an upscale, more european influence. The purists hated it; the magazines gave it praise with comments like "astonishingly beautiful" for the styling. It was a big gamble on the part of GM but they knew they had to make styling progress. The current Camaro team is in pretty much the same exact position as back then. The current hot-seller-big-success style is getting old and they need to change it. But as they've already seen with just changing the rear on the 2014 refresh, that's a minefield.

Of the concept idea drawings from various artists I've seen so far, it seems the "look" was the goal; not practicality. None of the concept drawings I've seen would ever be able to be produced as an actual car and even remotely look like the concepts. They clearly weren't thinking about anything except making something that would impress the comic book/Batman movie car crowd.

To borrow an old Apple slogan, I decided to "think different". I started with function first, then let form follow. My goals weren't to impress the comic book crowd, my goals were: #1- improved driver visibility. I race my car on the track and I'm very aware how much you have to "guess" exactly where the front and in particular the right front corner of the car is when cornering. I wanted to open up the cabin view and especially the driver view to the corners. This led me to the design you see. As far as I know it's nothing like any previous GM car; especially any previous Camaro. The priority was driver view; the design/style/form was the result. I made the cabin as open and as thin as possible and I trust that with the new strong composites and GM engineering they could make it work and meet safety/crash regulations.

The traditional Camaro design has the "coke bottle" pinch/waist at the back of the door. I moved it to the front of the door for the specific purpose of increasing the driver's view toward the corners. The traditional style has the short back and long front; mine reverses that with a long flowing back wedge and a shorter front wedge. This was done so I could lower the front door sill to increase the view for the driver. The form was the result of the function goal.

The C pillar is minimized with a larger back window, and I opened the sides as much as I could including taller side windows than the traditional Camaro style. Again, the form was the result of the function goal which was to improve driver visibility, and while that's great on the track, it's even more important for safety on the street. The style of the cabin was completely dictated by the function goals.

Having the swept down sides at the front door, leading to the down sweep of the front makes for a noticeable improvement for the driver. If this were a real car and you could do a test drive comparing it to the current 5th gen, you'd be amazed at how airy and dynamic the driver's view would be on my concept by comparison.

The overall style is minimalist basically; no trendy gimmicks that would "date" the styling other than perhaps the LED lighting. Some concessions would have to be made to enhance marketability but I've kept those to a minimum so the car would keep it's value and looks for a long time. The 1967 Camaro was pretty much a pure design and almost 50 years later it STILL looks good on the road. In 1967 a car from 1920 did NOT look current and stylish. Having a timeless style was something I wanted my concept to have.

The rear winglets were the result of two things; I know from studying the designer notes of the 1970 LeMans winning Porsche 917 that those winglets were the final element that stabilized that car design at high speed and enabled the car to become the dominant force on the track it was. That was in my mind when I was designing a spoiler for the back, because I was also thinking about function goal #1 of increasing the driver visibility. So I borrowed that idea because it allowed the center area to be "open" so the driver would have a better view to the back. The tops of the winglets are just visible which also tells the driver where the back of the car is when backing up. No more guessing. Even after 4 years of driving my Camaro I'm still not exactly sure where the front of the car is when pulling into a parking space, when backing up close to something, when going around a corner where I might gouge the side of my car on something. I wanted to improve driver visibility to reduce that uncertainty; that's a big area for progress (in my opinion) for moving the Camaro platform forward.

The lower sides and front of my concept originally were track focused I'll admit, which wasn't so street friendly. I've since made adjustments towards street friendly and that may continue as I study the design. The side view isn't strictly Camaro in the traditional sense although it does use the coke bottle effect... just moved forward for reasons explained above. The back of the car is a hybrid of 1970-ish Camaro and 1970 Porsche 917 styling with a touch of Corvette influence. It's actually more GM than anything being done by any other American manufacturer.

So to sum it up; it's a modern Camaro. There are loosely some retro styling influences but it's a modern style; sleek, minimalist, pure. It's my interpretation and vision of where I'd like to see the Camaro go instead of a comic book/movie car which would horribly date the car. I don't want to see the Camaro go the direction it went in the 70's with marketing gimmicks.

It's a tough situation; how do you change such a successful car? If you're going to move forward with the styling, which direction do you go? There are two things you can absolutely count on: no matter what you do you can be sure that #1 you can't please everybody, and #2 if you come up with a good design see #1. I did this concept so that I wasn't just a complainer, but a contributor too so I could give the Camaro team some ideas.

At least some of the people from GM view this thread so if any of you have ideas you think would help them for the 6th gen now's the time to contribute. All I ask is please keep it civil; no name-calling or trash talk, keep it reasonable and something they could actually do; don't waste their time with ridiculous drawings/ideas that couldn't possibly be done as a production car. Keep it honest and real.

I sincerely thank all of you who take the time to read/view all this and for the feedback/comments you've made. I hope this journey is at least entertaining and maybe it will even encourage the Camaro design team to "think different".

Oh, and one more thing.... the lower front now has a grill. Hopefully you can see it in this snapshot.

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Old 11-14-2013, 12:34 PM   #201
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I certainly see a resemblance in Doc's renderings and a 5th gen Camaro. But you have to remember there was no resemblance at all between the first Gen Camaro and the second gen. So does it have to resemble the previous generation to be a Camaro? No, not really...
Saying that I think the real 6th generation Camaro will have styling cues from previous generations...
Good work Doc!
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Old 11-17-2013, 12:09 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Angrybird 12 View Post
I certainly see a resemblance in Doc's renderings and a 5th gen Camaro. But you have to remember there was no resemblance at all between the first Gen Camaro and the second gen. So does it have to resemble the previous generation to be a Camaro? No, not really...
Saying that I think the real 6th generation Camaro will have styling cues from previous generations...
Good work Doc!
Thank you!

Further refinements and tweaks.... I spent some time on the back of the car and put a lot more "round" in the lower half; both top to bottom and front to back. I shortened the wheelbase a few inches and slightly reduced the size of the side scoops in the rear quarter panel and moved them forward a bit towards the door.

Hopefully in these snapshots you can see the difference in the back; it has a softer appearance now, not quite so "square" like it was before.

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In this side view you can "feel" it has better visual balance with the revised wheelbase. It's now exactly 113 inches (the 5th gen wheelbase is 112.3 inches). I would have to shorten it an additional 3.7 inches to match the Alpha platform wheelbase. I'm working on tweaking things here and there to get this design down to the exact Alpha chassis measurements.

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Old 11-17-2013, 06:20 AM   #203
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I have too many inputs to elaborate on, heh. I thought I'd hit on some of my big ones while I have a chance, since you do like inputs (one way or another).

-PLEASE, for the love of all that is good and sporty, make the Z/28's fender flares BODY COLORED ONLY. Black on any other color has traditionally meant OFF ROAD and always has, for the most part (though my opinion is that it looks really stupid there, too). There's a good reason that the Z/28 reveal car had body colored flares despite the GFX being black. As always, though, it's your concept so do what you want.

-Raise the entire lower half of the front fascia. Part of the reason that the nose has looked so 'slab-like' is that it extends down too far in relation to the upper half. This would also give it some real-world ground clearance ahead of the front wheels. Save the ground hugging for the Z/28's splitter.

-From one of the front 3/4 views, it does remind me of a late 80's El Camino... and it did well before anyone else mentioned it. I think it's because the flat-hip rear quarters combined with the greenhouse's taper inward toward the rear, it looks slightly like a cargo-bed back there from that particular angle. Add that to the slab-like nose and bam... it just pops into my head.
I maintain that the car needs more of a raised 'hip' but I understand what you're trying to go for.

-"Hideous" is purely subjective... 100% opinion. Therefore, there is absolutely no argument for or against it.

(For the record... I haven't been posting because I've been very busy getting our spacecraft ready to ship to Japan for launch in Feb., not because I've lost interest in your concept. The shutdown really screwed us up. It's ready to ship now though, and my group's ground support equipment [GSE] just shipped so I can relax 'just' a bit [still have other work to do though]).
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Old 11-17-2013, 06:40 AM   #204
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Oh, and I could be wrong, but I think the commonly used "coke bottle" reference means the car's shape from above looking straight down. IOW, in general the fenders flare out and the doors pinch in. I don't think it refers to the side view as you've been interpreting it.
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Old 11-17-2013, 08:46 AM   #205
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Doc, I have to say that what you've done here is at a minimum, admirable and after reading your logic on the last page as to what influenced your design is incredible. That fact that you would not only take the time to document some design ideas but to take the time to learn a functional design program to bring those ideas to life and to then open up the design to a community team concept? Well, damn man. I give you mad props for that. What you've done takes an incredible investment in time and your willingness to share it is equally admirable.

I've been a somewhat of a silent luker, commenting here and there with mostly complements, but aside from design comments, most people here are missing the bigger issue here that I believe (hope) is not lost with GM designers of the 6th Gen. If they're smart and regardless of final design, there truly is a vested community within Camaro owners that are willing "pitch in" which is the part They know already, but the part they can really tap in to are the well thought out functional design concepts that you've brought to light. Visibility in particular is a big complaint that I've always had with the current design for example. So GM, I hope your taking these sort concepts into consideration with your designs.

Again, Doc. Thank you for bringing your ideas to life, but more importantly giving GM a solid resource from current owners and not only a voice from this group, but the example of what we might like to see. As much as I love my 5th Gen, (and my 1st Gen) I'd buy your concept car in heartbeat.
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Old 11-17-2013, 09:33 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by ALLTRBO View Post
Oh, and I could be wrong, but I think the commonly used "coke bottle" reference means the car's shape from above looking straight down. IOW, in general the fenders flare out and the doors pinch in. I don't think it refers to the side view as you've been interpreting it.
Actually I think the Coke bottle reference started back in the 60's and refered to the side appearance. As in the 67 Camaro had a Coke bottle side sculpture. Also the 66 ford Galaxie also had that reference made to it.
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Old 11-17-2013, 01:08 PM   #207
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This isn't a big suggestion, but one I'd like to see.

If you look at the pictures you posted of the 5th gen model next to your concept 6th gen, look at how the sheet metal is flat around the wheel well edges on the 5th gen, whereas on your concept the sheet metal doesn't have this little flat area. The body curve just continues on to the edge of the wheel well.

I could be wrong, but I think this slight change could be an improvement to your design.

I agree with ALLTRBO about raising the lower half of the fascia.
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Old 11-17-2013, 01:37 PM   #208
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Actually I think the Coke bottle reference started back in the 60's and refered to the side appearance. As in the 67 Camaro had a Coke bottle side sculpture. Also the 66 ford Galaxie also had that reference made to it.
Yeah, it looks like you're right, thanks for the info. Like I said, I could be wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coke_bottle_styling

Ironically, the raised 'hip' that I keep mentioning is the rear part of the 'Coke bottle shape' as it is commonly referred to. I dislike that reference, but it is what it is.
I think the car needs more "Coke bottle" in the rear quarter.
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Old 11-17-2013, 02:30 PM   #209
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love the design but not sure about the rear panels and the rear in general

this camaro is even more boxy than the current gen, and the rear reminds me of the F-40, but the desing is elegant and keeps some part of the old camaros heritage (by the way those rims looks like a mix between Iroc Z and F-40) hehehe



you forgot one of the mos important parts of 5 gen camaros... the ''hips'' w/out hips the car would look boring from the sides


sill this is an awesome job, and hope GM took a similar path to you, that front looks killer
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Old 11-17-2013, 02:50 PM   #210
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Looking at the latest rendition of the front end... I'm not too sure about it. That lower opening is oddly reminiscent of the Guppy Mouth on a Nissan GT-R. Personally I can't stand a GT-R and the guppy mouth is my most hated feature of it.

I think if you make the bottom cross bar a touch thicker so it is more defined it will improve the look and get away from the guppy look. Maybe try and make it less trapezoidal while your at it. I know that might affect the lower ports a touch.

Overall I like the look it has a "racecar" feel to it. Almost reminiscent of a NASCAR look from before the current cars.

Keep up the great work.

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