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Old 03-05-2014, 08:30 PM   #967
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Why are people getting pissed off about a 4 cyl camaro? So ****ing what?? Is GM holding a gun next to your dome and forcing you to buy it?? NO! They won't stop putting v8's in a camaro as long as the GT and R/T exist. Everyone relax.
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Old 03-05-2014, 08:53 PM   #968
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revychevy View Post
So unless we have a 4 cylinder Camaro V8's and I guess Corvettes can't exist ?

You did say this right? My reading comprehension is fine, mr sanctimonious. How's your memory? If you believe something or misspoke something state your case without the snide insults.

It makes you seem like a dick just because I don't like 4 banger muscle cars.
Are you employed by GM to convince everyone that 4 cylinder Camaro's will be better than 8 cylinder? Better than 6? This is a car enthusiast site for people who like Camaro's.

Is there room for people who like it the way it is, or do all of us have to get on your turbo 4 bandwagon?

As I said before , they may do it -- maybe they do what Dodge has done with SRT8 and price it out of reach making the 4 banger the 34 grand car and pricing the V8 in the 50 grand range.

I won't buy it. I won't buy GM if they turn this car into a glorified econo honda thingy.

Others probably won't either, so unless a law is passed forcing people to buy specific cars on a government exchange or face a fine-- I'll be done when this car is a 4 cylinder.
No, what I'm saying is you need cheaper and more fuel efficient 4 and 6 cylinder models to offset the lower volume/fuel economy of the V8s. Not every car can solely have a V8. Camaro isn't a super low volume car like SS or a dedicated high performance sports car like Corvette.

You're suffering from the delusion that every 4 cylinder is an eco engine. They're not. The 2.0T is for the most part, a performance engine first that just happens to be fairly economical as well. And apparently you also believe that the minute GM puts a 4 cylinder into Camaro, it'll be...infected or something and it won't be a good car anymore. Despite the fact that it'll still have a V8 variant.

Again. V8s are not going anywhere BECAUSE GM produces 4 and 6 cylinders too.

Like I said before, this entire thread is a total overreaction (mostly from one member in particular). If the base 6th gen engine is the 2.0T, WGAS? Don't buy it if you want the available V8. Just know that the 2.0T (just like the V6 right now) is what's helping make the business case for the V8 viable.

But if the 2.0T goes into Camaro, I guess you'll be done with the car, so...whatever.
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Old 03-06-2014, 05:02 AM   #969
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wow, lots of bs flying! I would kinda understand the bickering if we were talking about exclusive ownership vehicles, not 25 k - 50 k mass produced cars. It is not worth the bickering as GM will do what they think is right or in some cases easiest.
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Old 03-06-2014, 07:18 AM   #970
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revychevy View Post
So unless we have a 4 cylinder Camaro V8's and I guess Corvettes can't exist ?

You did say this right? My reading comprehension is fine, mr sanctimonious. How's your memory? If you believe something or misspoke something state your case without the snide insults.

It makes you seem like a dick just because I don't like 4 banger muscle cars.
Are you employed by GM to convince everyone that 4 cylinder Camaro's will be better than 8 cylinder? Better than 6? This is a car enthusiast site for people who like Camaro's.

Is there room for people who like it the way it is, or do all of us have to get on your turbo 4 bandwagon?

As I said before , they may do it -- maybe they do what Dodge has done with SRT8 and price it out of reach making the 4 banger the 34 grand car and pricing the V8 in the 50 grand range.

I won't buy it. I won't buy GM if they turn this car into a glorified econo honda thingy.

Others probably won't either, so unless a law is passed forcing people to buy specific cars on a government exchange or face a fine-- I'll be done when this car is a 4 cylinder.
I think you are missing the context of what you quoted. He was replying to my statement, so I am probably the one you should be directing your comments at. What I've been saying is that consumer demand for V8s has decreased significantly. We still have them because people like them in trucks, large SUVs, Corvettes and Camaros. We are already seeing a trend toward smaller SUVs with V6s, and if that continues the V8 will be even more rare. The volumes of Corvettes and V8 Camaros are very small as it is. If the number of V8s going into trucks takes a nose dive because of CAFE, then it may be economically difficult for car manufacturers to justify. Will we have a V8 in the 6th Gen Camaro? I think that's almost dead certain. Will we have one in 2022? I don't know but I'm afraid we may not. The only way I think it will happen is if three things change. 1) We move regular duty trucks out of CAFE or into a separate foot print, and 2) We allow car manufacturers to us credits to offset missing minimum foot print targets instead of just the average, and 3) we let the engineers think outside the box. If the first two changes come to fruition it still won't guarantee the Camaro of 2022 will have a V8, but if GM can offer economical Camaros along side V8 Camaros then it can work. If I don't like the base Camaro I don't have to buy one. Hopefully enough other people will so we can get the V8 version.
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Old 03-06-2014, 07:54 AM   #971
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl View Post
I think you are missing the context of what you quoted. He was replying to my statement, so I am probably the one you should be directing your comments at. What I've been saying is that consumer demand for V8s has decreased significantly. We still have them because people like them in trucks, large SUVs, Corvettes and Camaros. We are already seeing a trend toward smaller SUVs with V6s, and if that continues the V8 will be even more rare. The volumes of Corvettes and V8 Camaros are very small as it is. If the number of V8s going into trucks takes a nose dive because of CAFE, then it may be economically difficult for car manufacturers to justify. Will we have a V8 in the 6th Gen Camaro? I think that's almost dead certain. Will we have one in 2022? I don't know but I'm afraid we may not. The only way I think it will happen is if three things change. 1) We move regular duty trucks out of CAFE or into a separate foot print, and 2) We allow car manufacturers to us credits to offset missing minimum foot print targets instead of just the average, and 3) we let the engineers think outside the box. If the first two changes come to fruition it still won't guarantee the Camaro of 2022 will have a V8, but if GM can offer economical Camaros along side V8 Camaros then it can work. If I don't like the base Camaro I don't have to buy one. Hopefully enough other people will so we can get the V8 version.
I already agreed in my post that this was possible, my consideration is that the price of the V8 moves so far north it's close to Corvette range and out of reach.

Like the Srt8 being around 50 grand at dealers around me when they came out.

It seems to me that we have a lot more RWD V8 cars than were available in 10 years ago--- domestic and foreign. I guess they don't count though. It seems to me that performance has had a shot in the arm since retro muscle cars came back on the scene... But I could be mistaken since I don't work for GM or anything.

Am I taking crazy pills? Are there not Shelby 660 hp cars? Zl1s, Zr1, AMG, new Jaguars, srt8s in charger challenger and a 300?, v8 wagons, Cadillacs, and Beemers?
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Old 03-06-2014, 08:04 AM   #972
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Originally Posted by revychevy View Post
I already agreed in my post that this was possible, my consideration is that the price of the V8 moves so far north it's close to Corvette range and out of reach.

Like the Srt8 being around 50 grand at dealers around me when they came out.

It seems to me that we have a lot more RWD V8 cars than were available in 10 years ago--- domestic and foreign. I guess they don't count though. It seems to me that performance has had a shot in the arm since retro muscle cars came back on the scene... But I could be mistaken since I don't work for GM or anything.

Am I taking crazy pills? Are there not Shelby 660 hp cars? Zl1s, Zr1, AMG, new Jaguars, srt8s in charger challenger and a 300?, v8 wagons, Cadillacs, and Beemers?
Yes, all those cars exist and they all share two things in common. First, there aren't very many of them on the streets, and second they are expensive. Despite the high price, Ford couldn't justify the GT500 without selling many more base Mustangs. The same goes for GM and the ZL1. Soon, SS Camaros and GT Mustangs will come at a premium price if they can't support them with base models that sale even more units. And the ZL1s may cease to exist all together (heck, the cost as much as a base Vette now). If a turbo 4 Camaro will sale enough units to keep the SS around at a reasonable price, then I for one will be happy. Remember, another part of the pony car tradition was they were reasonably priced. First-time car buyers and those needing a second car could afford them. Isn't that tradition as important as how many cylinders the base engine has? If you have to give up one of the two traditions, wouldn't you give up a V6 base model so you could still afford a V8 version?
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Old 03-06-2014, 09:41 AM   #973
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Here is what Al had to say about it

Oppenheiser addressed the possible future demise of V8 engines, saying that, “In the future, something I don’t think the public realizes yet, there may be a day when nobody, Ford, Chrysler or GM has a V8, or if they do it would be a very highly-priced V8 because you’ve got to add your whole stable of cars and come up with a fuel economy number”.

He also added that downsizing the car or the engine too much will stray too far from what the Camaro is all about, and make people question whether the car should continue on.

“We’ve established what the Camaro is. And if the Camaro ceases to become a Camaro, you’ve got to consider, do you take Camaro out in the future.”
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Old 03-06-2014, 09:52 AM   #974
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Understand, that I'm not disagreeing with your economic assessment of the ramifications of CAFE.

I just don't like it.

I won't buy a 4 banger, and if they price the V8 like the Z-28 or ZL1 I will not buy GM. ( all my POV's have been GM except the Mercedes I had while stationed in Germany in the eighties!)
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Old 03-06-2014, 09:53 AM   #975
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revychevy View Post
Here is what Al had to say about it

Oppenheiser addressed the possible future demise of V8 engines, saying that, “In the future, something I don’t think the public realizes yet, there may be a day when nobody, Ford, Chrysler or GM has a V8, or if they do it would be a very highly-priced V8 because you’ve got to add your whole stable of cars and come up with a fuel economy number”.

He also added that downsizing the car or the engine too much will stray too far from what the Camaro is all about, and make people question whether the car should continue on.

“We’ve established what the Camaro is. And if the Camaro ceases to become a Camaro, you’ve got to consider, do you take Camaro out in the future.”
Hopefully that won't happen. Allowing manufacturers to use credits across footprints, and treating regular-duty pickups differently will give them more flexibiliy. But consumers will need to support GM as they try to pull this off. The camaro may end up sharing a footprint with many models in 10 years just so they can support high performance trims.

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Old 03-06-2014, 11:01 AM   #976
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Originally Posted by revychevy View Post
Understand, that I'm not disagreeing with your economic assessment of the ramifications of CAFE.

I just don't like it.

I won't buy a 4 banger, and if they price the V8 like the Z-28 or ZL1 I will not buy GM. ( all my POV's have been GM except the Mercedes I had while stationed in Germany in the eighties!)
Again you keep saying you won't buy GM if they price them too high. Again I say it's not going to be just GM but ALL manufacturers. So does that mean you just won't buy from GM or not from anyone?
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Old 03-06-2014, 11:07 AM   #977
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Again you keep saying you won't buy GM if they price them too high. Again I say it's not going to be just GM but ALL manufacturers. So does that mean you just won't buy from GM or not from anyone?
Agree.

There's absolutely no reason to think that if the V8's in GM products are getting expensive, that other manufacturers won't be getting expensive as well.

Look at it this way. If Ford still offered a 450+HP V8 mustang for $35K, but for some stupid reason you can't get a V8 Camaro with the same power and performance for under 45 to 50K....which would the vast majority buy? I know you realize this, but what you have to also understand is that GM knows they must stay competitive with other makers, so they are going to offer an alternative at a similar price.

In a nutshell, if because of CAFE, GM can't put a standard N/A V8 into a Camaro at a price normal people can afford, then I don't see how Ford or Dodge will be able to either.
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Old 03-06-2014, 11:11 AM   #978
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Well, everyone wants to loose 200lbs in the Camaro. That's one way to do it! Lol
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Old 03-06-2014, 11:23 AM   #979
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Take a good look at the current v8 offerings. All or most of them are (starting) at or near 40k as is. Its very easy to get even the base SS and Mustang GT over 40k in price with a few options.

Its a sign of the changing climate that the v8s will become a very selective and expensive option for those that will desire it in the years ahead.
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Old 03-06-2014, 11:33 AM   #980
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I didn't intend to get in a pissing match with Fen, the reading comprehension cracks just rubbed me the wrong way.

On this entire thread we've talked about the capabilities of the 4 cylinder and the Ramifications of CAFE.

Many people have lauded the capabilities of the four cylinder turbo engine as if it's the mightiest, sweetest sounding thing to ever grace an engine bay. I disagree.

Others have said we have no choice CAFE will take V8 engines away -- or at least out of reach. I lament this, and agree to the strong possibility.

Others have said, why worry, they aren't putting a gun to your head and making you buy the 4 banger.

To this I say that Govt regulation that purposely makes V8s go away IS a gun to my head . They will tax and regulate the industry to NUDGE you into buying the cars they want.

Then they will remove your choice to do it at all. ( that's why I can't smoke my cigar anywhere including the store where I buy them!)

They will eventually get around to making all American cars sporty little 4 banger hatchbacks and ultra expensive luxury and sport cars.

Then some politician with a hot button issue will decide that only electric cars should be on the road and that the internal combustion engine should be outlawed for causing global warming or some such.

I think ( call me crazy). That if they change these cars to "sporty turbo 4 hatchbacks" that we will lose what makes them unique. fait accompli.
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