01-30-2010, 10:00 AM | #15 |
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One word:
EMISSIONS The LSX is not emissions-compliant anywhere in North America, so the chances of getting one "factory-installed" for licensed, street-driven purposes is ZERO... Another word: LIABILITY Ever wonder why you can go to a GM Dealer, order an LS9 crate engine, but NOT be able to purchase through GM the proper electronics to "speak" to anything but a Corvette? Yup...liability... GM will take the risk, for warranty AND liability, on a ZR1 (I'm sure it's factored into it's price...), but at the moment that's the ONLY chassis the LS9 is "cerified and validated" for, by GM. NO chassis has that "blessing" for the LSX, and no street version of the LSX is expected... |
01-30-2010, 10:10 AM | #16 | |
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01-30-2010, 10:19 AM | #17 |
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If we are talking about certification and CARB numbers, both the LS7 and LS9 are certified for the Vette. There is no reason that those engines couldn't be available for the Camaro based on what is being said here.
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01-30-2010, 10:22 AM | #18 |
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01-30-2010, 10:25 AM | #19 |
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With all the changes who knows, but mostly has to do with the balls of the dealer. Which also means you can only get warranty work done there as it would be dealer installed. [he can fudge paper work to get GM to cover it]
in the mid 80s GM never sold a 350 T5 3rd gen, but you can find documented ones that were sold by a dealers who were able to get it done. |
01-30-2010, 11:54 AM | #20 | |
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01-30-2010, 12:06 PM | #21 | |||||
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There won't be that many special orders for good reason. GM won't be doing all of the work. The dealers will have to install the engines and transmissions as if they were installing crate motors in hollow Camaro shells. Plus, GM could price these products as special editions, requiring a higher MSRP. These costs would make dealers less likely to order special Camaros unless customers specifically ordered them. Plus, this would reduce the special Camaros on the lot, meaning that the number of special Camaros would stay low. Quote:
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All GM has to do is tune the ECM. Most ECMs are similar and can handle similar tuning. There is nothing fundamentally different with the LS7 that makes it impossible to tune on the LS3 ECM. They are both LS-series engines, and plenty of aftermarket companies have shoved the 7.0-L giant into a Camaro. GM can handle it, and so can your dealer.
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01-30-2010, 12:25 PM | #22 |
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The reason, as stated by others, is emissions compliance.
For a vehicle to be sold in this country, it MUST meet emissions standards for the market it is sold into. Let's think about a few of the cars sold over the years not offered in certain configurations - The 330 hp LT4 Corvettes of 1996 come to mind... The LT4 Corvette was a manual transmission-only model for 1996 and was standard in the 1996 Grand Sport Corvette and available on the rest. If you ordered an automatic transmission Corvette in 1996, you received the LT1 (300 hp) engine in your car. Some have claimed over the years, they had a special, one-of-a-kind automatic LT4. GM would lose their tail by letting a non-certified car out of their doors. Not going to happen! So.... Back to the COPO cars of the past... The 427 (ZL1) Camaros of the past, are legendary today. No doubt about it! However, 40 years ago, the auto manufacturers were not choked and burdened with the regulations of today. COPO exists today in limited form today - paint colors and certain trim may fall under a Central Office Production Order. Higher hp engines, just don't happen though... The good news today, is you can get an engineered, high-powered supercar from your local Callaway/Chevrolet dealer, delivering volumes of power in an (50 state) emissions complaint package, and with an unparalleled Powertrain warranty. http://www.callawaycars.com/las/Call...Literature.htm |
01-30-2010, 12:30 PM | #23 | |
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While true they are certified for use in the Corvette, that does not get them an automatic pass for installation in the Camaro. It's much more complicated than that... |
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01-30-2010, 12:32 PM | #24 |
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But the fact is, I could build a high performance numbers matching car like anyone else, no one except Gm is capable of producing an ls? block that matches the vin number. Like blur stated, there is a way around the EPA if the production is under 2000. Which would make it rare.
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01-30-2010, 12:50 PM | #25 | |
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Let's forget the engine issue and talk about other options for a moment. If I want to order a stripper, I will have to order a 1SS and call it a day. Imagine being able to order without OnStar. A GM employee wouldn't have to install that on the car. That's a cost reduction. Imagine being able to order without a sound system at all. Now no one has to install the speakers. Do you see how this makes customization easier? I can go to a fine electronics retailer and pick up these items without them being included in the cost of the car. At the same time as I do this, it is still a street legal machine. It has a VIN. I can insure it as a daily driver. I just don't have to pay for parts that I don't want, and GM can reduce the price by these items in proportion to the profit that they want to gain. For instance, if a feature costs $1,000 to install, but GM only take $700 off my price, GM gets $300 for me to remove an option. It's actually profitable to do this. Now, let's get back to engines and transmissions. The first and most obvious solution to getting around regulations is getting Americans to call their elected officials and make them pass a law. Because Americans are oftentimes too busy or, as I would argue, too politically lazy to tell their elected officials how they really feel, this may never happen. Sadly, most people think the only way to be involved in democracy is voting. What they should be doing is calling their elected officials monthly to give them feedback. No one does this, so elected officials, instead of responding to their constituents, operate on their own opinions. We elect them to listen to their boss, the people, but their boss never tells them what to do. Of the listed regulations that should be changed, I reference the rule that the highest trim is usually tested. It's the heaviest, biggest, and least efficient trim. Of course, the EPA gives this rating to all cars that have similar characteristics when in fact they could do better. This rule sucks. Call your elected officials about it. The next solution is to look for loopholes. If we call the Camaro a truck, it basically gets a free ride through the EPA, so a future El Camino might be a powerful solution to the performance problem. Another loophole is minimum production numbers. Notice what the EPA does not list in the fuel economy list. Do you see the world's fastest car, the SSC Ultimate Aero TT? I couldn't find it. The production numbers are low enough that the EPA does not have to test it. GM could use the very same trick.
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01-30-2010, 04:00 PM | #26 | |
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Look at the LS9 in the ZR1. Fewer than 2,000 were built last year however, the LS9 still had to be certified. Additionally, the ZR1 has a hefty gas guzzler tax applied to each car sold. I hear you on the truck vs. passenger car idea however, a Camaro is classified as a passenger vehicle and that won't change. Small volume manufacturers are exempt from specific rules that saddle large manufacturers. Saleen, was a good example of this, with respect to their S351 models in the mid-late 90s. Saleen was notorious for getting exemptions for things like that - and also for the (non) airbag rule for the S7 I hope this helps |
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01-30-2010, 04:22 PM | #27 |
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You are correct, only 1,415 ZR-1's in 2009....... But blur, are you saying make a Camaro with say an LS-7 its own model? Or a RPO? If you made it its own model then it could be exempt. Chris, the ZR1 is an option of the Corvette, not its own model, I think blur is saying make it its own model not an option.
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01-30-2010, 04:33 PM | #28 | |
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