[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I do want it to beat the standard ZL1 on the track. But if it does I think it will be more from overpowering the ZL1 in the straight sections. We'll have to see. But I do also in the back of my mind think Ford would be happy to simply keep up with the ZL1 around a track instead of actually beating it. Everything I've seen from Ford like the PP2 with no coolers, Bullitt with PP1.5ish type handling, etc to me means that they are not trying to beat the Camaro on the track but to just stay close enough to look like they can or will beat it.

Yea but look at the competition and what they offer at the same price point. Maybe with the 5th Gen you could get away with offering an extreme handling package that sacrifices options. But I think those days are long gone. The ZL1 gives you everything as standard and throws in extreme handling. The Z06 can be optioned down but that is because it is a $100K+ car with full options. Removing those options makes it affordable for people who might prefer to sacrifice the options in the ZL1 and "settle" for a base Z06 instead. The Hellcat comes standard with everything. Well it did but now they are offering the newer 717 HP one stripped down. However it comes in at around $50K which is Bullitt, GT PP2, fully loaded 2SS pricing. I don't think the GT500 can get away with that at this point. Not if they're gonna charge more than the competition. People want their cake and eat it too. If Ford skimps out while others are throwing everything in the interior then I for one wouldn't buy it no matter how well it performs.

To me it can't just be a performance win. Not when they're coming in this late in the game. It has to win at everything. Options, performance, looks, comfort, pricing without markups, etc. If it just comes in and beats the competition at everything but costs $80K and dealers mark it up an additional $10K and it doesn't have heated seats or the upgraded stereo then that is hardly a win.

The only reason I can think of for the delays is that they want to match up/beat the ZL1 and maybe the ZLE. I think they want to make a well balanced car, I don't think they are just going to chase the Hellcat while having a car that is decent enough at handling. I don't think we will see a stripper car like the 350 was. The 350 was purpose built to take on the Z/28 in a d*** measuring contest. That is why I believe the 500 will be optioned like it should be.

Originally Posted by kttxz06

Nah dude. I agree. I have a feeling it's gonna look so fkn sick and mean, but the price is what bothers me. I had a dealership call me 2 weeks ago cus I was looking at one of their Super Snakes. They sold out, but he said they could order me one. Would be around $110k. Smh. So, I have no idea where the 500 will fall sticker wise. I'd have to say $70kish? Then go all the way up to $100k? Who knows. But if it comes out with say 750 hp that revs out to 8k? Holy shit. I think that will be more of a straight line street monster TBH. $10k in mods, you are prob pushing close to 1000HP. Pulley it down, tune, tire, fuel, OMG. But, we'll see.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The only difference is that the Shelby Super Snake is not the same as a Shelby GT500. SSS has always costed $30K-$40K more than the standard GT500. Those are more like specialty performance cars and those prices are not due to markups, that is just what they flat out cost. Performance wise they typically blow the GT500 away in just about everything and come fully loaded. Although it isn't on ZR1 level.


Standard GT350s had ADMs as well. One friend of mine bought one back in 2016 and he paid a $5K markup for it. That was the lowest markup he could find and even that was after negotiating with the dealership.

Originally Posted by Mike00

No idea how I missed out on seeing the super snake. But $110k ehhh.... I'll go ZL1 and Hellcat at that price.

It's been a good couple years for car enthusiasts. That said the entire Mustang scenario at the moment makes no sense to me in the marketplace. Then again to be fair brand loyalty seems far stronger in the American car market than the germans or even japanese imports.

Just so we are all clear, the Shelby Super Snake is a third party produced vehicle, by Shelby American. The Super Snake has 0 to do with the upcoming GT500. The SuperSnake starts off life as a GT, is then sent to Shelby American in las vegas and then done up.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Just an FYI, but Mike was saying it won't beat the ZLE (which is short for ZL1 1LE), and the H2H was the R against the regular ZL1 (not the ZLE). And it was a bit more than a tick, it was .39 seconds. Four tenths is about four "ticks" to me. The gap between the R and the ZLE would have been substantially larger than four ticks.

All that said, I think Ford CAN produce a GT500 with 750HP that beats the ZLE around a track, but my question is, at what price? Having steel brake rotors and getting rid of the Voodoo will save some money, but can they beat the ZLE at a competitive price? Time will tell...

What was also interesting is that the R in that H2H test posted the exact same time as the SS 1LE (the times were shown in the video). It was a different day, but that is still pretty interesting. The track must have been slow that day, because I don't think the SS 1LE is as fast as the R. The regular GT350 perhaps, but I think the R is a bit faster in a same track same day scenario.

They might be able to, I just don't know if they can. Maybe I am just that impressed with the ZLE but maybe the 500 can beat it around the track. It will have a power advantage so maybe it can just power it's way past it.

[Mike00]

Originally Posted by shaffe

They might be able to, I just don't know if they can. Maybe I am just that impressed with the ZLE but maybe the 500 can beat it around the track. It will have a power advantage so maybe it can just power it's way past it.

Agreed. That said if it would actually sell at $70k or so - could beat the hellcat/ZO6 in the drag and fall in between the ZL1 and ZLE on the track - frankly I'd be all over that car.

Ahh well either way it would be nice to see some info come this fall for next year. Hopefully we start seeing concrete info on what it is going to be.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by newmoon

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm just curious why you assume the bold sentence above. I'm not being negative, just trying to understand the reasoning. Keep in mind that the GT350R was only a tick behind the ZL1 while having a huge hp/tq deficit, in the only same day same time head to head match up. Now the GT500 will likely have a many upgrades, a new DCT transmission and likely a significant hp/tq advantage over the ZL1/ZL1-1LE.

As already been addressed, the GT350R was running against the base ZL1. The GT350R is also roughly 230lbs lighter than the manual ZL1 and almost 290lbs lighter than the A10 version. You really think that adding all the weight that a big blower, bigger engine, bigger tires, rims, etc is somehow going to be overcome by adding another 150-200hp?

And let's take it one step further. The two fastest cars made in America at the Ring, are essentially sub 7:10 second cars. Both are in the 650-750hp range, while being RWD as well. The next fastest? The ZL1-1LE....which has 650 hp...and ran an unofficial 7:13. It's official time is only 3.5 seconds slower than that.

Keep in mind, this is all while doing it at a price point that makes financial sense. Even the Demon, started at like 85k...it wasn't a cheap Hellcat.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

All that said, I think Ford CAN produce a GT500 with 750HP that beats the ZLE around a track, but my question is, at what price? Having steel brake rotors and getting rid of the Voodoo will save some money, but can they beat the ZLE at a competitive price? Time will tell...

Ford won't be able to do it at a competitive price point, because they couldn't even beat the ZL1 with the GT350R, and it was already scratching the ZL1 price tag. Now you're going to add some bigger brakes, bigger tires, a big blower (which brings a requirement of more upgraded items) you're going to try and do some aero (if they're actually going for a 1LE target point) and there is simply no way the car comes in under 75k. If it does, I'd be stunned, because I just don't see any way you can do it. The Super Snakes are as legit as it comes, and even they're in 90-100k range.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

What was also interesting is that the R in that H2H test posted the exact same time as the SS 1LE (the times were shown in the video). It was a different day, but that is still pretty interesting. The track must have been slow that day, because I don't think the SS 1LE is as fast as the R. The regular GT350 perhaps, but I think the R is a bit faster in a same track same day scenario.

They're fairly similar cars in terms of performance, and keep in mind, those tires on the 1LE are quite impressive. Add in the fact that the car is still down on power compared to the GT350R and even a close loss is staggering considering the difference in the cost of the two cars.

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

As already been addressed, the GT350R was running against the base ZL1. The GT350R is also roughly 230lbs lighter than the manual ZL1 and almost 290lbs lighter than the A10 version. You really think that adding all the weight that a big blower, bigger engine, bigger tires, rims, etc is somehow going to be overcome by adding another 150-200hp?

And let's take it one step further. The two fastest cars made in America at the Ring, are essentially sub 7:10 second cars. Both are in the 650-750hp range, while being RWD as well. The next fastest? The ZL1-1LE....which has 650 hp...and ran an unofficial 7:13. It's official time is only 3.5 seconds slower than that.

Keep in mind, this is all while doing it at a price point that makes financial sense. Even the Demon, started at like 85k...it wasn't a cheap Hellcat.

I been saying this all along and just gave up lol. Most of them know this. But everyone has to have an excuse for a loss. The regular zl1 is basically a touring car jack of all trades. The R has every advantage besides the engine and the two aren’t as far apart in acceleration as the numbers would suggest anyway

The zl1 1le proves all of this. While still lugging around more weight

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

Ford won't be able to do it at a competitive price point, because they couldn't even beat the ZL1 with the GT350R, and it was already scratching the ZL1 price tag. Now you're going to add some bigger brakes, bigger tires, a big blower (which brings a requirement of more upgraded items) you're going to try and do some aero (if they're actually going for a 1LE target point) and there is simply no way the car comes in under 75k. If it does, I'd be stunned, because I just don't see any way you can do it. The Super Snakes are as legit as it comes, and even they're in 90-100k range.



They're fairly similar cars in terms of performance, and keep in mind, those tires on the 1LE are quite impressive. Add in the fact that the car is still down on power compared to the GT350R and even a close loss is staggering considering the difference in the cost of the two cars.

The only argument I can make is that the 350R was designed to tackle the 75K Z/28. It did so with a lot of unique parts for the 350/350R(compared to the regular Mustangs) and it didn't have the advantage of pulling them from the parts bin.(Yes I know the Z/28 had it's share as well) Yet based on MSRP Ford was able to undercut the price of the Z/28 by 12K as the first model year 350R's had a starting MSRP of 63K.

I think Ford will be able to offer the car in the same price range. It might not under cut it, but I firmly believe it will be in the same range. That is based on my assumption they do a 500 and a 500R/KR variant. If that is the case I believe the 500 will be in the same ballpark as the ZL1 and the 500KR/R will be in same range as the ZLE.

And the Super Snake is just another overpriced post title vehicle package from Shelby American.

[Bhobbs]

GT350R: 3662 lbs / 526 hp = 6.96 lbs/hp.
ZL1: 3883 lbs / 650 hp = 5.97 lbs/hp.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I think Ford will be able to offer the car in the same price range. It might not under cut it, but I firmly believe it will be in the same range. That is based on my assumption they do a 500 and a 500R/KR variant. If that is the case I believe the 500 will be in the same ballpark as the ZL1 and the 500KR/R will be in same range as the ZLE.

I don't think it will be in the same ballpark, because I fully expect it to have more horsepower, thus they'll charge more for it. You can get brand new M6 ZL1's for upper 50's..hell, I got my brand new A10 ZL1 for 61k... I sincerely doubt you'll see any GT500 variant, if there is a variant, for less than 75k.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

I don't think it will be in the same ballpark, because I fully expect it to have more horsepower, thus they'll charge more for it. You can get brand new M6 ZL1's for upper 50's..hell, I got my brand new A10 ZL1 for 61k... I sincerely doubt you'll see any GT500 variant, if there is a variant, for less than 75k.

That's all fine and dandy, but the car still has to be able to compete in it's target market. Hellcat is 60K, ZL1 62K. GT500 has to be somewhere reasonable near that, and Ford has shown in the past that they are able to do that with the 350R MSRP compared to the Z/28.

Unless of course they only offer one variant and it decimates everything. I don't see them going that route though

[Mike00]

MSRP for the the regular GT500 has to be sub $75k. The whole conversation is stupid though because we all know ADM will be $10k minimum probably $20k. I have a feeling this ends up at $90k+ to even try and get one for the first 12 months of release.

Ford dealer network = junk

[72MachOne99GT]

We go through this everytime.

New performance Mustang is due.
Opposite camp makes obsurd price predictions.
Car comes in nowhere near ridiculous predictions.

Rinse.
Repeat.

Whether the car performs on par, slightly better, or slightly worse, than a ZL/1LE, it’s going to be priced within a few thousand dollars.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

As already been addressed, the GT350R was running against the base ZL1. The GT350R is also roughly 230lbs lighter than the manual ZL1 and almost 290lbs lighter than the A10 version. You really think that adding all the weight that a big blower, bigger engine, bigger tires, rims, etc is somehow going to be overcome by adding another 150-200hp?

Right. And the GT350R benefited from being stripped down like the Z28 was AND those CF wheels. I don't think the GT500 can get away with a stripped down version these days considering how impressive the ZL1 is with full options. So we're talking about a pretty hefty vehicle. It should be able to overpower the ZL1 in the straights. But will it's suspension be tight enough, will the brakes be good enough, will the HP/TQ be suitable enough, and will it have the necessary cooling to keep up with the ZL1 in the corners? Or to at least keep up enough so it can stay ahead in the straights?

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

Ford won't be able to do it at a competitive price point, because they couldn't even beat the ZL1 with the GT350R, and it was already scratching the ZL1 price tag. Now you're going to add some bigger brakes, bigger tires, a big blower (which brings a requirement of more upgraded items) you're going to try and do some aero (if they're actually going for a 1LE target point) and there is simply no way the car comes in under 75k. If it does, I'd be stunned, because I just don't see any way you can do it. The Super Snakes are as legit as it comes, and even they're in 90-100k range.

The GT350R was actually more expensive than the ZL1 and Hellcat when looking at just the MSRP. Markups made it even more expensive. But without ADM it was still priced higher. Ford shaved money by not using the CF wheels and that retarded FPC engine in the GT500. But is that enough to make up for full options as standard and the blower as well as the beefed up internals...and the A10 that is being thrown in there??

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

The only argument I can make is that the 350R was designed to tackle the 75K Z/28. It did so with a lot of unique parts for the 350/350R(compared to the regular Mustangs) and it didn't have the advantage of pulling them from the parts bin.(Yes I know the Z/28 had it's share as well) Yet based on MSRP Ford was able to undercut the price of the Z/28 by 12K as the first model year 350R's had a starting MSRP of 63K.

I think Ford will be able to offer the car in the same price range. It might not under cut it, but I firmly believe it will be in the same range. That is based on my assumption they do a 500 and a 500R/KR variant. If that is the case I believe the 500 will be in the same ballpark as the ZL1 and the 500KR/R will be in same range as the ZLE.

And the Super Snake is just another overpriced post title vehicle package from Shelby American.

I doubt there will be 2 versions of the car. We would have known that by now if that was the route Ford was gonna take. Remember, the GT350 came first and then the GT350R came a year later. Can Ford really take the chance and put out a lower performing GT500 first and then wait to put out the second one? Can they get away with putting them both out at the same time? There will be just one. The only way I can see them doing this is maybe offering one that is a base model and doesn't come with any options and then one in the higher option group that has everything. But each one will have to have all of the performance goodies. No R version and non-R version.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

GT350R: 3662 lbs / 526 hp = 6.96 lbs/hp.
ZL1: 3883 lbs / 650 hp = 5.97 lbs/hp.

Yeah? A grand tourer vs a dedicated track car