[ILBMF]

I don't know man, I see a hell of a lot of gloating here too like ''set fire to your mustang'', ''mustang6g guys are losing it'', ''SS sends mustang gt to the slaughter'', ''Mustang fanboys getting all hot and bothered''. That's all understandable to me. I think when it's not your team of friends it's easier to pick out the foolish shit especially when you agree with your own guys. It's not like better people tend to gravitate to GM products and shit heads gravitate to Ford. People are people and it's human nature for them to react the way some do.

Simple fact is Chevrolet and Ford make quality cars these days and some people take it all too seriously. Both companies are actually on top only on different levels at this very moment. Don't get me wrong, I see the panic over there on mustang6g because they are not happy right now.

[brutusvk]

Set Fire to Your Mustang was the title to an article.

[ILBMF]

Ok, you can have that one back. People get worked up and I won't. I like great cars no matter which company produces it. I like the new Mustang and the new Camaro. I know my '11 SS is going down the road though. Doesn't meet the new standard overall. Mainly the interior and the lack of visibility.

[GTIanZ28]

Way way back around '98 I had a '95 Camaro Z28.

My neighbor could have been related to pill. He flatly denied and refused that the Z28's were faster than the GT's or that the SS camaros were faster than the cobra's. I showed him a couple magazine reviews and he still insisted that the Mustangs are faster and superior to the camaros.

It was amazing. And, it was my first experience of attempting to speak with someone so inflicted with blind brand loyalty.

I stopped talking with the guy once I realized that it would be impossible to have a normal conversation with him.

Have come to the realization with age that this applies to everything. Clothes, tech, food, drink... Etc.

[ILBMF]

Another thing I have noticed about the mustang6g group is quite a few of them are not owners of previous mustang platforms. They jumped on the new platform because it actually is a great car with a new kind of appeal...just ask the magazines about a year ago who were praising it so highly rightfully so. Now, they just don't understand the history and the game between the makes. Chevy took 2 steps forward this time and it doesn't set well with them and the brand loyalists who thought it was ''game over''. That's just not realistic. The general forum on that site really lacks in member knowledge. The 5.0 mod section is full of exhaust questions and lacks technical subject matter or questions unlike the previous platform member forums displayed.

[LesserO2Evils]

Kinda like 90% of Gen 5 owners. Prior to 2009, theyd never owned a Camaro.

[KMPrenger]

SS sends GT to slaughter was also an article name

[68fbjjz109]

One of the things I have noticed, is many people in general don't understand how cars are made, time frames, and what affects internal functional objects or what internal restrictions have on a product.

The 6gen Mustang cake was baked, and some time ago. It's development started over 5 years ago. When the 5th Gen Camaro was just starting to hit the streets. Well before the it became common knowledge that the Camaro was going to be Alpha based. Aside from that fact I think the Mustang focus may be shifting. Cost is king.

There are advantages and disadvantages to having your own vehicle platform, and limitations to based on which plant is used to build it. The S550 was built under the F150 cost umbrella, Ford was investing a sizable amount of money and effort to make the switch to aluminum in the F150.

Anyway

Some objectives for the S550 chassis was this:
-maintain mass, and material
-decrease visibility hindrances
-improve vehicle cabin space
-improve vehicle crash performance
-IRS

- Carryover powertrain; this is very Ford, anyone who is surprised by this isn't paying attention.
- Carryover front suspension; So obliviously the complete new front suspension wasn't a planned change, nor was the cost incurred by it for the Mustang program, one of the reasons I think the majority of the front suspension is steel/cast iron.

I have heard, that aluminum closures had been an initial consideration but likely omitted to save money, but I don't know that for sure.

Aside from that, they meet there internal targets, and they have sold a shit ton of them, and they are performing very well. Nothing to discredit, nothing to get your panties in bunch over.

Enter the Camaro, as soon as I heard it was Alpha based I looked back to see what data we had on it. I could look up the post a M6G but I distinctly remember saying a Alpha based Camaro SS most certainly has the potential to be a 3700 pound car. Even with a carryover powertrain and access to the ATS V part bin. It would be a force to be reckoned with. That is the big advantage of flexing a vehicle platform used by your highend brand to fight the Germans. The best part is another platforms budget paid for your lightweighting, and your budget can help add to future changes to move both forward.

Contrary to the opinion of some, the Alpha platform has alot a great design elements from the vehicles I have looked at from the BIW perspective. It is highly regarded from the chassis standpoint from the competition. I think some are starting to see that.

When the Camaro price was revealed, there was some but hurt people. But when I was here looked at what it offered (performance numbers not know, and faith in the weight loss). I saw alot of the value there. Lots of aluminum components that your average person is not going to swap out, and you get charged for it.

There are a couple very noticeable characters, but in the some 5 odd huge ass 6G Camaro threads, most of the outlook is very positive. I think people realized that GM took a sound foundation, and came out very strong and have given credit where credit is do. There is saber rattling, but the response is generally what what I mentioned above. Most are curious to see what the response is.

[xgnxs]

Originally Posted by 68fbjjz109

One of the things I have noticed, is many people in general don't understand how cars are made, time frames, and what affects internal functional objects or what internal restrictions have on a product.

The 6gen Mustang cake was baked, and some time ago. It's development started over 5 years ago. When the 5th Gen Camaro was just starting to hit the streets. Well before the it became common knowledge that the Camaro was going to be Alpha based. Aside from that fact I think the Mustang focus may be shifting. Cost is king.

There are advantages and disadvantages to having your own vehicle platform, and limitations to based on which plant is used to build it. The S550 was built under the F150 cost umbrella, Ford was investing a sizable amount of money and effort to make the switch to aluminum in the F150.

Anyway

Some objectives for the S550 chassis was this:
-maintain mass, and material
-decrease visibility hindrances
-improve vehicle cabin space
-improve vehicle crash performance
-IRS

- Carryover powertrain; this is very Ford, anyone who is surprised by this isn't paying attention.
- Carryover front suspension; So obliviously the complete new front suspension wasn't a planned change, nor was the cost incurred by it for the Mustang program, one of the reasons I think the majority of the front suspension is steel/cast iron.

I have heard, that aluminum closures had been an initial consideration but likely omitted to save money, but I don't know that for sure.

Aside from that, they meet there internal targets, and they have sold a shit ton of them, and they are performing very well. Nothing to discredit, nothing to get your panties in bunch over.

Enter the Camaro, as soon as I heard it was Alpha based I looked back to see what data we had on it. I could look up the post a M6G but I distinctly remember saying a Alpha based Camaro SS most certainly has the potential to be a 3700 pound car. Even with a carryover powertrain and access to the ATS V part bin. It would be a force to be reckoned with. That is the big advantage of flexing a vehicle platform used by your highend brand to fight the Germans. The best part is another platforms budget paid for your lightweighting, and your budget can help add to future changes to move both forward.

Contrary to the opinion of some, the Alpha platform has alot a great design elements from the vehicles I have looked at from the BIW perspective. It is highly regarded from the chassis standpoint from the competition. I think some are starting to see that.

When the Camaro price was revealed, there was some but hurt people. But when I was here looked at what it offered (performance numbers not know, and faith in the weight loss). I saw alot of the value there. Lots of aluminum components that your average person is not going to swap out, and you get charged for it.

There are a couple very noticeable characters, but in the some 5 odd huge ass 6G Camaro threads, most of the outlook is very positive. I think people realized that GM took a sound foundation, and came out very strong and have given credit where credit is do. There is saber rattling, but the response is generally what what I mentioned above. Most are curious to see what the response is.

Another thing I don't understand is how they think that they'll be getting aluminum panels, a power increase, and a new transmission this generation. I understand that the mustang is (basically) Ford's top tier car and they can do a lot more than Chevy can with the Camaro, but that all sounds like next generation stuff, and they really just started this current generation of the mustang. I love how all the comments about the 10 speed transmission never talk about how it's being co-developed with GM. Assuming for a second that the GT does get all of those things, at what price? Will they be ok with a GT that costs the same or much closer to an SS? Price is one of things they love to complain about the Camaro (that and "it's ugly"). Maybe a new model that has all of things and slots between the GT and 350, but is there room for one? I don't know, doesn't seem like there's a ton of logic or thinking about possible negative consequences over there. But, maybe Ford is the kind of company that can add more expensive materials, a new transmission, and a significantly more powerful engine that can pass emissions (without direct injection or some form of AFM, since both are terrible) without a significant cost increase.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by xgnxs

Another thing I don't understand is how they think that they'll be getting aluminum panels, a power increase, and a new transmission this generation. I understand that the mustang is (basically) Ford's top tier car and they can do a lot more than Chevy can with the Camaro, but that all sounds like next generation stuff, and they really just started this current generation of the mustang.

That bold bit? They did exactly that mid generation with the 2010 to 2011 transition.

For 2010 they changed every single body panel, except the roof.

For 2011 they introduced a new powertrain in every single car, including the GT500 which went to an all aluminum 5.4 S/C with 550 HP and then the 5.8 with 662 HP in 2012 for the 2013 MY. The Coyote got power revisions in 2013 also.

[Tr6]

So far, more "mustang" guys have been giving me thumbs up and waving than gen5 owners...

[huggercamaro21]

Originally Posted by Tr6

So far, more "mustang" guys have been giving me thumbs up and waving than gen5 owners...

I have found that a ton of gen 5 guys are very against the gen 6. Very similar things happened S197 cs S550 Mustangs and I am not sure why.

[Tr6]

Originally Posted by huggercamaro21

I have found that a ton of gen 5 guys are very against the gen 6. Very similar things happened S197 cs S550 Mustangs and I am not sure why.

Pretty much. It happens... It doesn't bother me as I could care less. I've seen more love from mustangs, challengers and every other car on the road (trucks and other sedans)... I love my car. Probably the fact that gen6 is much superior to gen5 but like i said, who cares lol.

[68fbjjz109]

Originally Posted by xgnxs

Another thing I don't understand is how they think that they'll be getting aluminum panels, a power increase, and a new transmission this generation. I understand that the mustang is (basically) Ford's top tier car and they can do a lot more than Chevy can with the Camaro, but that all sounds like next generation stuff, and they really just started this current generation of the mustang. I love how all the comments about the 10 speed transmission never talk about how it's being co-developed with GM. Assuming for a second that the GT does get all of those things, at what price? Will they be ok with a GT that costs the same or much closer to an SS? Price is one of things they love to complain about the Camaro (that and "it's ugly"). Maybe a new model that has all of things and slots between the GT and 350, but is there room for one? I don't know, doesn't seem like there's a ton of logic or thinking about possible negative consequences over there. But, maybe Ford is the kind of company that can add more expensive materials, a new transmission, and a significantly more powerful engine that can pass emissions (without direct injection or some form of AFM, since both are terrible) without a significant cost increase.

Can they? Yes most certainly. Ford as a alot of cash squirreled away.

-Switching to Aluminum closures is relatively easy, as the can come into the plant off line if Flat Rock can't build them yet. I can see this happening because it improves performance and mileage, and improves overall CAFE fleet economy.

Aluminizing the chassis or putting composite panels in it, likely wont happen unless it is part of the life cycle of the platform, and comes in when Ford changes things out at Flat Rock with the new Lincoln.

-10 Sp is coming, I think the new Raptor has it, and it's being jointly built. These new trans are huge performance increase in speed and for CAFE, perfect example is the 6GC.

-Pump in power. The Coyote is setup for DI, it was left out due to the cost associated with it in 2011, and it wasn't needed yet. With the Voodoo being Coyote architecture, and its 2nd revision itemized in UAW contracts. There may be some trickle down if mileage and performance can be gained.

Will they? I don't know, here is why.

We have benchmarked alot of Fords. A big conclusion over the last 7-10 years is Ford is very Toyota concept like. In many aspects they are more Toyota like then peoples concepts of what Toyota is said to be. Ford seems to be very deliberate in what it does, and where it puts cost into platforms.

Lots of component standardization, lots of carry over, evolutionary changes, vs revolutionary, and product life cycle.

Sure they built a all aluminum truck, using the highest volume vehicle in North America, a great way to pay for the invest quickly. But is very similar to the previous F150 in terms over overarching strategy, and approach which makes sense.

Another example, the seat structure found in the F150 is now common across multiple vehicles, Focus, Escape (Flexed), Fusion, Mustang, GT350 ect. That I have seen personally. This has happened over the last three years.

Doing this allow you to spend some more money on a quality component, that you put in everything. In the long run that saves you alot of money, reduced quality concerns from unique components, and lets you do huge volume with your suppliers, getting better prices.

This helps them make money, and they are most certainly in the business of making money and future proofing their company.

The Camaro can be built ala carte, the Mustang cannot when compared to the option list the Camaro has. This reduced variations in assembly leading to inherit quality increase and cost reduction. Honestly ever time I built a 1LE or a Colorado I was surprised by the option set.

So with how deliberate and cost consensus Ford is. And given that reactionary measures would cost them money. I would venture if it deviates to much from product life cycle planning. They won't change that because of the Camaro.

If they can get more by slightly accelerating things they might.

Power associated to DI, helps CAFE.
Aluminum Closures reduced weight, helping CAFE.

Further light weighting, increase performance helps CAFE.

Overall I am super excited for this segment, just need to befriend a 6 gen owner because I want to get a ride. All my GM buddies are striking out with test vehicles, fast feedback cars, or ambassador cars.