[KMPrenger]

I'm no Ford hater. Now that that's outta the way....my opinion, but I don't think Ford can beat the ZL1 for the same money when you consider both handling and straight up acceleration. Sure, Ford can (and probably will) bring a 700+ HP beast, but unless you can get it with some sort of track dedicated handling and brake package (those brakes DO look huge lol), with track rated (LOW mileage rated) tires similar to the GTPP2 package for the GT...it won't kill the ZL1 on the track. And then at that point, we are comparing it the ZL1 1LE to be fair.

700+ HP with ZL1 killing handling on the track for $65K? Lets see it Ford. I will applaud you for the effort.

That said, everyone loves to hang on the 1/4 mile times, so I'm going to assume the GT500 will put the current ZL1 to rest there. That is...unless GM just dumps the LT5 into the ZL1. Its the easy answer, although I doubt GM can maintain it's current price point and put the LT5 into the ZL1....so there is that. But GM has the goods already.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

I'm no Ford hater. Now that that's outta the way....my opinion, but I don't think Ford can beat the ZL1 for the same money when you consider both handling and straight up acceleration. Sure, Ford can (and probably will) bring a 700+ HP beast, but unless you can get it with some sort of track dedicated handling and brake package (those brakes DO look huge lol), with track rated (LOW mileage rated) tires similar to the GTPP2 package for the GT...it won't kill the ZL1 on the track. And then at that point, we are comparing it the ZL1 1LE to be fair.

700+ HP with ZL1 killing handling on the track for $65K? Lets see it Ford. I will applaud you for the effort.

That said, everyone loves to hang on the 1/4 mile times, so I'm going to assume the GT500 will put the current ZL1 to rest there. That is...unless GM just dumps the LT5 into the ZL1. Its the easy answer, although I doubt GM can maintain it's current price point and put the LT5 into the ZL1....so there is that. But GM has the goods already.

I think they can definitely bring something to the table that can handle it in the 1/4 and be more than capable of being the ZL1 equal on the twistys. Ford was able to offer the GT350R for less than the Z/28. I think they know the threshold for these cars. I think it will be close in price to the ZL1 and perform like it.

What I don't think they have the capability to do is match/beat the ZL1 1LE

[Syclone]

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I think they can definitely bring something to the table that can handle it in the 1/4 and be more than capable of being the ZL1 equal on the twistys. Ford was able to offer the GT350R for less than the Z/28. I think they know the threshold for these cars. I think it will be close in price to the ZL1 and perform like it.

What I don't think they have the capability to do is match/beat the ZL1 1LE

The GT350R weighed 170 lbs less and had 21 HP more than the Z/28. I think the gen6 ZL1 will be a little harder and then you have the ZL1-1LE. IMO, that's why the 500 is late showing up to the party

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The GT350R weighed 170 lbs less and had 21 HP more than the Z/28. I think the gen6 ZL1 will be a little harder and then you have the ZL1-1LE. IMO, that's why the 500 is late showing up to the party

True, but I was relating that to the cost alone. They did it for 12K less than the Z/28. People around here don't seem to think that Ford is capable of building the car at ZL1 level pricing. That is all I was referring too with that comment. I don't see why they wouldn't be able to build a ZL1 competitor at a similar price and offer similar/better performance.

I agree on the Z1LE though, I don't see them chasing that down.

[OneDarkSS]

With the newest LT5 engine being an OHV design, I think that will be the last we will be seeing of good ol’ pushrod engines being developed for future GM V8 cars.

Starting in 2019-2020, perhaps even later I believe that GM is going to go the way of DOHC V8 engines, much like Ford did. It has just come to the time where GM needs to move with the times and radically change how they design their V8 engines. I just hope that they don’t use this approach as a reason to scale back engine displacement.

Coyote 5.0 is a beast for what it is, a smaller V8 engine that Ford has been able to squeeze such impressive horsepower and even torque numbers from. Imagine what GM can would with a 6.2 or 7.0 liter?

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by shaffe

True, but I was relating that to the cost alone. They did it for 12K less than the Z/28.

Well, then GM turned around and did the SS 1LE for around $25 grand less than the Z/28, with the same track performance.

Chevy seems to always have a leg up on Ford, not just in engine boring, but suspension and chassis development. Chrysler-Dodge just says ****-it and stuffs the biggest engine and blower they can in there and they know it will sell because people are attracted to straight-line performance like crack, they don't try to compete on the track because they get their rear end handed to them every single time. Ford has had some good developments, but it's always lagging behind GM and they never seem to put as "serious" of an effort into it.

I think it started with the 2nd generation CTS-V with the 556hp supercharged engine and the cult-status G8. The Corvette was always there and always getting better with every iteration, but at that turning point in 2009 they offered an absolutely nuts sedan, with the magna-ride and all the goodies that make a modern performance car, holding back nothing. Was it perfect? Of course not, but it was in a category that Ford has simply chosen not to step in for a long time. Then the Gen 5 Camaro showed up, and it was a huge evolutionary leap, it too had flaws, but from a strict performance standpoint, it was miles ahead, this is when Mustangs GTs were coming with 300hp, they had to quickly refresh the model and come out with a HP rating that was similar, but GM had independant suspension and a better chassis, so every attempt to up the performance of the Mustang was easily met and exceeded. But I didn't post this to just talk about mustangs, but C6 Z06s, ZR-1s, Gen 5 ZL-1s, Chevy SSs, ATS-Vs, hell, CTS-V wagons, and so on. GM has been far more serious about performance car development and is far more consistent at putting out a well rounded machine. This is a paradigm shift from what they put out in the 2000s, 90s and before. They put out stuff that was a complete joke compared to performance cars from Europe and even a lot of the snappy handling Japanese sedans and small cars. It seemed like all they could do was make a solid-rear axle overweight soft-car with an auto-trans and low-compression V8, etc.

As cool as the GT350 is, Ford just can't seem to touch the performance car development that GM is into these days. I wouldn't hold out for the GT500, it would really have to be so much faster than anything GM has to bring back some of that credibility, remembering that if they dump enough money into it where it's faster and more expensive than a ZL1-1LE, then there's always the ZR-1 that is a monster, and Ford doesn't even have a chassis to compete with that as far as we know. It comes down to the fact though that car companies are in the business of selling cars, not making the fastest or best cars, so Ford is likely doing what they think will do this. All 3 of the big US manufacturers know that trucks and SUVs are where you make your money. Guys will fork over 40-70K in a heartbeat for a pickup truck with all the goodies.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Well, then GM turned around and did the SS 1LE for around $25 grand less than the Z/28, with the same track performance.

That is also true, if you have been through the threads on this site though, there is decent number of people that don't think Ford could offer a ZL1 Competitor at a similar price. They all say it will be more than the ZL1 1LE and have no options. My rebuttal to that is they have shown they can do it in the past, so lets just wait and see.

[DRKS1D3]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The GT350R weighed 170 lbs less and had 21 HP more than the Z/28. I think the gen6 ZL1 will be a little harder and then you have the ZL1-1LE. IMO, that's why the 500 is late showing up to the party

Originally Posted by shaffe

True, but I was relating that to the cost alone. They did it for 12K less than the Z/28. People around here don't seem to think that Ford is capable of building the car at ZL1 level pricing. That is all I was referring too with that comment. I don't see why they wouldn't be able to build a ZL1 competitor at a similar price and offer similar/better performance.

I agree on the Z1LE though, I don't see them chasing that down.

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Well, then GM turned around and did the SS 1LE for around $25 grand less than the Z/28, with the same track performance.

The reason the Z/28 was so pricey was because it was kind of an after-thought. They had to spend a lot of money to make the 5th Gen super fast around a road course. And they sure accomplished that. The Z/28 crushed many cars costing 1.5-2 times as much! The CC brakes, LS7 and SVD's made the price really jump for GM. Ford's answer was the GT350. An all new chassis, body and VooDoo engine that is exclusive to the Shelby. And if you look at the price of the GT350R's, they're still bringing $10-15k OVER sticker at dealers. Good luck finding one at MSRP. So the guys saying the GT350 is cheaper than the initial price of the Z/28, that is somewhat a wash considering these egregious mark-ups are still all over the place, unless you're speaking of the less radical GT350 (not the R). All I'm trying to say is the Z/28 was created (essentially) from the GM parts bin (sans CC brakes and MultiMatic SVD's) and Ford had to design a brand new car from the ground up in order to compete with it. IMHO, that says a lot for GM and their engineers! An amazing track machine.

As far at this GT500 competing with the ZL1 and the mighty ZL1 1LE, I'll be interested to see what Ford has up their sleeve in order to compete, not only in performance, but also in price. The ZL1 is a bargain at ~$62k!!! A very fun time to be a car guy indeed.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by DRKS1D3

The reason the Z/28 was so pricey was because it was kind of an after-thought. They had to spend a lot of money to make the 5th Gen super fast around a road course. And they sure accomplished that. The Z/28 crushed many cars costing 1.5-2 times as much! The CC brakes, LS7 and SVD's made the price really jump for GM. Ford's answer was the GT350. An all new chassis, body and VooDoo engine that is exclusive to the Shelby. And if you look at the price of the GT350R's, they're still bringing $10-15k OVER sticker at dealers. Good luck finding one at MSRP. So the guys saying the GT350 is cheaper than the initial price of the Z/28, that is somewhat a wash considering these egregious mark-ups are still all over the place, unless you're speaking of the less radical GT350 (not the R). All I'm trying to say is the Z/28 was created (essentially) from the GM parts bin (sans CC brakes and MultiMatic SVD's) and Ford had to design a brand new car from the ground up in order to compete with it. IMHO, that says a lot for GM and their engineers! An amazing track machine.

As far at this GT500 competing with the ZL1 and the mighty ZL1 1LE, I'll be interested to see what Ford has up their sleeve in order to compete, not only in performance, but also in price. The ZL1 is a bargain at ~$62k!!! A very fun time to be a car guy indeed.

Talking strictly MSRP here. What the market dictates price wise should not be included in this discussion. Yes great accomplishment by GM, but like you said, they had a lot of the parts there already.

[DRKS1D3]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Talking strictly MSRP here. What the market dictates price wise should not be included in this discussion. Yes great accomplishment by GM, but like you said, they had a lot of the parts there already.

Yes, the 5th Gen Camaro was already 4 years into its life cycle. The GM engineers had to find ways to make this thing really rip around a track. Add in CC brakes, LS7 and Multimatic SVD's and the price of a 5th Gen Camaro increases dramatically. The engineers HAD to use a 5th Gen platform for the Z/28, so you work with what you have. If they had another option, the car could have been cheaper. BTW, the GT350 does NOT have CC brakes or SVD's so that saves a lot of coin right off the bat.

Look at the new 6th Gen SS 1LE. It is ~$42k and is a smidge faster around a track than both a Z/28 and a GT350 (not the R) in most tests. So, there again, the SS 1LE is ~$8-10k less than a GT350. We could go back and forth all day.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by DRKS1D3

Yes, the 5th Gen Camaro was already 4 years into its life cycle. The GM engineers had to find ways to make this thing really rip around a track. Add in CC brakes, LS7 and Multimatic SVD's and the price of a 5th Gen Camaro increases dramatically. The engineers HAD to use a 5th Gen platform for the Z/28, so you work with what you have. If they had another option, the car could have been cheaper. BTW, the GT350 does NOT have CC brakes or SVD's so that saves a lot of coin right off the bat.

Look at the new 6th Gen SS 1LE. It is ~$42k and is a smidge faster around a track than both a Z/28 and a GT350 (not the R) in most tests. So, there again, the SS 1LE is ~$8-10k less than a GT350. We could go back and forth all day.

And the 350R has completely unique sheetmetal from the A-pillar, Carbon Fiber Wheels, and the VooDoo which was built specifically for the 350. Both cars have there fair share of unique equipment.

[DRKS1D3]

Originally Posted by shaffe

And the 350R has completely unique sheetmetal from the A-pillar, Carbon Fiber Wheels, and the VooDoo which was built specifically for the 350. Both cars have there fair share of unique equipment.

We get it, you're a HUGE Ford guy on a GM site. As I previously stated, we could go back and forth all day.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by DRKS1D3

We get it, you're a HUGE Ford guy on a GM site. As I previously stated, we could go back and forth all day.

Lol Yeah I think we can end the back and forth now and not hijack the thread anymore.

I would say I do lean more Ford now but I just try to approach things evenly lol