[MiamiBlueCamaro]

Originally Posted by Drew66

That's what makes America wonderful place. Freedom to choose whatever cheeses your macaroni and the right to express your opinion. I test drove both and came up with an exact opposite opinion. The only difference is I didn't join a mustang forum and try to convince the members there that their Car is substandard to what I chose.

Do what you want to do, like what you want, buy whatever makes you happy.

I had an English professor that always said "everything after a BUT is often a lie"

Have a nice evening
Drew

+1

[COmaro]

The economy started slowing last fall. I am closely tied into IT sales, and things went from good in June to not good in December. Some companies have already started layoffs. On top of that, interest rates are rising.

With all of that said, the drop in numbers for the entire segment is pretty shocking.

All of you sun belt residents may not believe this, but in the snow belt, more and more people are demanding AWD. Honestly, of the dozens of people I know who have bought new cars in the past five years, only two went with 2WD, and both were FWD. In the parking lot where I work, at least 90% of cars are AWD/4WD and the other 10% are Prius, Leaf, etc. Other than those and a few Hondas and Camrys, you'll see SUVs, Subarus, Audi, AWD BMW. The pure performance cars are AWD Tesla, Golf R, STi, WRX, Evo, Audi S series, AWD Jaguar, etc.

I think Chrysler is sticking their toes in the water with the AWD Challenger. Ford has the Focus RS and the Fusion Sport AWD, and GM has a bunch of ridiculously overpriced Cadillacs with AWD that are not the performance models.

[COmaro]

To put these sales into perspective, the high water mark of pony car sales was 1979. Camaro+Firebirds were almost 500,000, and Mustang was almost 400,000. Chrysler had pretty much abandoned the market at that point, but they still sold the Aspen R/T and Volare RoadRunner which could be considered pony cars. Trivia fact, Dodge also sold a car called the "Challenger" in 1979 that was actually a Mitsubishi with a 2.6L 100HP engine. Oh, and the infamous Plymouth Fire Arrow with the same engine. Even AMC had the Spirit AMX, which fit the rear drive V8 sporty mold. All told, the "Muscle/Pony car" segment sold well over 900,000! Compare that to 2016 with 73,000 Camaros, 106,000 Mustangs and 65,000 Challengers for a total of 244,000 or so.

Definitely a shrinking part of the car market.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by COmaro

To put these sales into perspective, the high water mark of pony car sales was 1979. Camaro+Firebirds were almost 500,000, and Mustang was almost 400,000. Chrysler had pretty much abandoned the market at that point, but they still sold the Aspen R/T and Volare RoadRunner which could be considered pony cars. Trivia fact, Dodge also sold a car called the "Challenger" in 1979 that was actually a Mitsubishi with a 2.6L 100HP engine. Oh, and the infamous Plymouth Fire Arrow with the same engine. Even AMC had the Spirit AMX, which fit the rear drive V8 sporty mold. All told, the "Muscle/Pony car" segment sold well over 900,000! Compare that to 2016 with 73,000 Camaros, 106,000 Mustangs and 65,000 Challengers for a total of 244,000 or so.

Definitely a shrinking part of the car market.

Today the Camaro shares a plant with two other Cadillacs. Back in the day GM had two plants that built only Camaros and Firebirds. Van Nuys California (Industrial complex) and Norwood Ohio (shopping mall).

[doc7000]

The really big story has been shifting consumer taste away from cars and toward SUV/CUV, I figured there was also something to Ford shutting down its plant. They were probably looking at their fleet/retail sales mix plus ATP and figured that a slow down was coming.

Though this is a segment that has had healthy growth over the last 4-5 years so it will be interesting to see what happens now. I can see a growing emphasis on the lower end of this market in order to drive sales there instead of the recent focus during all of the growth on the top end.

[AZCamaroFan]

if you add up the sales of the 3 cars it's about what the camaro, firebird and mustang were 15 years ago, but these are at a higher price point, more profitable, and much , much newer chasis'.

[LStick]

Seems to me Camaro sales a year ago were still including 2015 5th Gens at giveaway prices. On top of the new improved 6th Gens.

This year? Same product in an uncertain economy and political climate. Coupled with a customer base that for the most part has a sample of the name plate parked in their garage already.

[VCSRT]

Originally Posted by RenegadeXR

The whole market obviously look a pretty big hit. I'm going to go on a limb though and say that there's a very real chance that the Challenger, which is a 10 year old car at this point, could briefly beat out the Camaro in sales. Less than a 200 unit difference. That's pretty bad no matter how you try to rationalize it.

This. If (GM) you're not concerned that a 10 year old car based on a Mercedes platform from the early 90's is close to selling as many units that should tell people something. Base 4 Cylinder 2017 Camaro's are down to $21k in my area, I'm tempted to take back what I said and buy one as a daily driver beater at this rate lol.

[Drew66]

Without getting into the differences between GM, Ford and Chrysler, These cars are all declining. The Camaro in particular isn't losing sales because the visibility sucks and trunk and back seat are barely useable. All three are losing sales because for most people they are impractical. We have already drank the Kool-aid.

When I look at the Chevy's lineup: (I'm not going to list every car)
1. Malibu - a nice practical car it has great back seat, good visibilties and you could probably fit 2 dead bodies in the trunk. Malibu people may lust after a Camaro, but they bought the Malibu because of what they needed - a practical car.
2. Camaro - Very impractical. They gave the thing a pseudo back seat, a small trunk and gosh darn it they went and put a corvette motor in that sucker. I don't care because I have have other cars for the practicality of it all. A family guy who has two kids (who both have yet to go to college) and can't afford to buy two cars isn't going to buy a camaro. He is probably going to buy a Malibu or Fusion. Both great cars but lack the visceralness of the Camaro. The Camaro is not as practical as either of these cars and probably isn't being shopped by many for this reason. I have read thread after thread discussing what people drive in the winter besides their Camaro. If you store your car in the winter, you must be able to afford at least two cars (probably 3, because your wife drives an SUV). Now the fact that they gave this car a Corvette engine and priced closer to a Corvette and farther away from a Malibu means, at least in my mind, it spreads the gap between these two car segments. So, if you have no use for a pseudo back seat and can afford multiple cars, you may also consider a corvette. I have seen several people on the forum that have switched from corvette to Camaro and vice versa.
3. The other "SS" apparently in worse sales shape than the Camaro above It blurs the line between the Camaro and the corvette. The SS is a Malibu with that visceral feeling but at above 50G's has a smaller market of people that need that type of car. They compete more with the German Performance cars. Albeit from a distance. I looked at this car hard before deciding on the Camaro. It is what it is.
4. Corvette - top of the impractical performance car lineup. Many of the same comments as stated in the Camaro, but has a die hard following. I bet Camaro and Corvette are cross shopped more than ever these days

It is what it is people. Chevrolet has 3 high performance cars. 2 are Camaros and the other is the Corvette. These cars being sold go into different buckets. If you lump these 3 cars together the numbers would be higher.
(The number is 4 if you include the z28, but that is small number special circumstances purchase so I am leaving it out)

Now lets look at Ford's performance car lineup: OK I have to be honest they have 1 car that has 5 or 6 different models that competes with itself and Chrysler and Chevy. The Mustang Keeps escalating numerically until you get to the top of the line Mustang. This could be misconstrued as competing with a Corvette or their own "Ford GT". But In reality, it mostly competes with the trinity of american performance car brands. They don't have a corvette in their lineup to compete with in regards to sales numbers Who knows which ones are which I'll never know. Just when I think I have their number system figured out, Sadly I don't. So I won't list them. Here is one thing I do know, they are impractical for most people too. We love to jab back in forth between each other, but they are great cars as well. We here just prefer the Camaro. But we have a very good car, the Corvette, that our sales numbers bleed into

Mustangs numbers appear higher because they have no Corvette as close in price as we do. We have 2 smaller buckets to fill, while Ford has one big bucket to stuff all 6 different versions of the Mustang.

BTW: did you guys know that the Mustang has a roomier cabin with better visibility. There was a nice guy who has a mustang who was so kind to tell us how great the visibility is in the Mustang (that's why he bought his). I figured many of you weren't aware of this, so I thought I would point it out again.

I went to a few dealers over the past weekend to look for Camaros not one had one you could look at. They would state "oh yeah we have a couple. They are on our lot about 5 miles way. I think I can have someone take you there in 15 or 20 minutes." I said thanks, but I don't have the time. They are even hiding the fact that they do not expect to sell Camaros this time of year. It snows up/Down and all around me(didn't want to leave out our Canadian friends- Wasssup Top Hat) They are pushing trucks and SUV like crazy. It is what it is.

Bottom line is, this segment has a very narrow focus for dealers. I really love my Camaro, but I have never bought the same car twice. If they discontinue it I will be sad, but I find another sexy beast to cradle my behind as I drive.

[Zeke.Malvo]

Originally Posted by Drew66

Without getting into the differences between GM, Ford and Chrysler, These cars are all declining. The Camaro in particular isn't losing sales because the visibility sucks and trunk and back seat are barely useable. All three are losing sales because for most people they are impractical. We have already drank the Kool-aid.

When I look at the Chevy's lineup: (I'm not going to list every car)
1. Malibu - a nice practical car it has great back seat, good visibilties and you could probably fit 2 dead bodies in the trunk. Malibu people may lust after a Camaro, but they bought the Malibu because of what they needed - a practical car.
2. Camaro - Very impractical. They gave the thing a pseudo back seat, a small trunk and gosh darn it they went and put a corvette motor in that sucker. I don't care because I have have other cars for the practicality of it all. A family guy who has two kids (who both have yet to go to college) and can't afford to buy two cars isn't going to buy a camaro. He is probably going to buy a Malibu or Fusion. Both great cars but lack the visceralness of the Camaro. The Camaro is not as practical as either of these cars and probably isn't being shopped by many for this reason. I have read thread after thread discussing what people drive in the winter besides their Camaro. If you store your car in the winter, you must be able to afford at least two cars (probably 3, because your wife drives an SUV). Now the fact that they gave this car a Corvette engine and priced closer to a Corvette and farther away from a Malibu means, at least in my mind, it spreads the gap between these two car segments. So, if you have no use for a pseudo back seat and can afford multiple cars, you may also consider a corvette. I have seen several people on the forum that have switched from corvette to Camaro and vice versa.
3. The other "SS" apparently in worse sales shape than the Camaro above It blurs the line between the Camaro and the corvette. The SS is a Malibu with that visceral feeling but at above 50G's has a smaller market of people that need that type of car. They compete more with the German Performance cars. Albeit from a distance. I looked at this car hard before deciding on the Camaro. It is what it is.
4. Corvette - top of the impractical performance car lineup. Many of the same comments as stated in the Camaro, but has a die hard following. I bet Camaro and Corvette are cross shopped more than ever these days

It is what it is people. Chevrolet has 3 high performance cars. 2 are Camaros and the other is the Corvette. These cars being sold go into different buckets. If you lump these 3 cars together the numbers would be higher.
(The number is 4 if you include the z28, but that is small number special circumstances purchase so I am leaving it out)

Now lets look at Ford's performance car lineup: OK I have to be honest they have 1 car that has 5 or 6 different models that competes with itself and Chrysler and Chevy. The Mustang Keeps escalating numerically until you get to the top of the line Mustang. This could be misconstrued as competing with a Corvette or their own "Ford GT". But In reality, it mostly competes with the trinity of american performance car brands. They don't have a corvette in their lineup to compete with in regards to sales numbers Who knows which ones are which I'll never know. Just when I think I have their number system figured out, Sadly I don't. So I won't list them. Here is one thing I do know, they are impractical for most people too. We love to jab back in forth between each other, but they are great cars as well. We here just prefer the Camaro. But we have a very good car, the Corvette, that our sales numbers bleed into

Mustangs numbers appear higher because they have no Corvette as close in price as we do. We have 2 smaller buckets to fill, while Ford has one big bucket to stuff all 6 different versions of the Mustang.

BTW: did you guys know that the Mustang has a roomier cabin with better visibility. There was a nice guy who has a mustang who was so kind to tell us how great the visibility is in the Mustang (that's why he bought his). I figured many of you weren't aware of this, so I thought I would point it out again.

I went to a few dealers over the past weekend to look for Camaros not one had one you could look at. They would state "oh yeah we have a couple. They are on our lot about 5 miles way. I think I can have someone take you there in 15 or 20 minutes." I said thanks, but I don't have the time. They are even hiding the fact that they do not expect to sell Camaros this time of year. It snows up/Down and all around me(didn't want to leave out our Canadian friends- Wasssup Top Hat) They are pushing trucks and SUV like crazy. It is what it is.

Bottom line is, this segment has a very narrow focus for dealers. I really love my Camaro, but I have never bought the same car twice. If they discontinue it I will be sad, but I find another sexy beast to cradle my behind as I drive.

How does Chevrolet have only 3 performance cars where 2 of them are camaros and the other is a Corvette? That makes no sense.

[Brian 1LE SS]

Wow, those numbers are crappy, but It means good deals will be out there.

[2010SLVRBULIT]

Luxury vs practicality right now. However, good for someone looking to buy one of these three, provided there are incentives. I for one am content w/ my 5th.

[Drew66]

Originally Posted by Zeke.Malvo

How does Chevrolet have only 3 performance cars where 2 of them are camaros and the other is a Corvette? That makes no sense.

Cars somewhere near 50G's. The 120,000 Corvette wasn't included. Neither was Ford's GT. They don't seem to be cross shopped together with Mustang and Camaros or Hellcat (or inset another model here so as not to offend anyone). Yes, the Corvette has different models as well. I was referring to the Camaro, ZL1 and any Corvette near 60-ish thousand.

insert any car you like and change the numbers any way you like. These cars don't appeal to the mass numbers the way a more practical car does. I could have save a lot of typing and just wrote that last sentence.

Hope that helps
Drew

[DrkPhx]

Those are dismal numbers; winter time or not. Curious to see Mustang sales once MY 18 starts hitting the showrooms. It's more than a refresh and with the expected hp bump and new for Mustang content, I would expect the msrp to be more in line with the Camaro, but we'll see.